QTC30 and KM184 for Classical Guitar

[ksemerick]

I'm considering a couple of different microphones for recording solo and ensemble classical guitar at a distance of about 10-15 feet, stereo pair in a live environment. I also occassionaly record live small ensemble jazz using a stereo pair.

Two candidates I am considering are a matched pair of KM 184s and a matched pair of Earthworks QTC30s (similar to the QTC1), and I'm wondering if anyone has experience (positive or negative) with these mics in a similar environment.

My concern with the KM184 is the low frequency roll-off (probably more of a concern with the jazz ensemble). My primary concerns with the Earthworks are the noise, and the general suitability of them for this type of recording.

I would be interested in hearing of other mics that should be on my short list, keeping in mind that I need low noise, high output, and a pretty smooth top for the low SPL classical guitar application. I also do not want to spend more than about $1400 for the pair. As the price approaches $2500, I would probably just save up and buy a pair of Schoeps, which have impressed me in the past. I also have done mono guitar recordings using a single KM184, and that worked pretty well too. I have never used an Earthworks product, so my concerns and perceptions are unfortunately based only on what I have read.

Thanks in advance for any help or advice that you can give.

[threm]

Search and you will find -

http://gearslutz.com/board/showthrea...highlight=qtc1

http://gearslutz.com/board/showthrea...ighlight=qtc30

[ksemerick]

Thanks threm,

I had read those links, and they did provide some useful information. Unfortunately, I have not found any existing articles discussing using these microphones (or others, for that matter) in the primary application which I'm interested in, classical guitar. FYI, I also ran a search on classical guitar, and have found no discussions regarding concert miking of this rather quiet instrument. Lots of stuff on CLOSE miking steel string acoustic guitars, tho... Anyway, I appreciate the help, and take care.

Ken

[threm]

ksemerick,
here's a couple of threads you may find useful:

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/ind...07/0#msg_10707

http://www.3daudioinc.com/cgi-bin/ul...c&f=1&t=000544

http://www.3daudioinc.com/cgi-bin/ul...c&f=1&t=000380

[liuto]

I have done some recordings of renaissance and baroque lute (as I happen to be a lutenist) with pairs of Neumann KM 84 (noise fig. 17dBA). 83 (19dBA) and KM 184 (13dBA) at distances of around 1m. Noise is definately a problem with this soft instrument (and I suppose guitar too) and I would not try this with an Earthworks mik (noise 22dBA of QTC1?). I like the sound of the KM83 omnis very much. But rooms are not always suitable for omnis. On the other hand, depending on the rooms acoustics the bass roll off of a pressure gradient mic is not as severe as the frequency (free field measured) plot might suggest. The diffuse field frequency response of most cardioid mics has a softer roll off due to loss of directivity of the capsule and lowfrequ. soundwaves arriving also from the rear. If you want to record really low frequencies you need of course a pressure mic (omni). Some alternatives for your applications are:
Schoeps (noise fig. from 11-14dBA depending on capsule)
Neumann TLM 193/170 (medium size capsule, very neutral sound, Noise 10dBA),
Neumann KM 184 (more versatile than omni KM 183, but KM 84/83 are smoother sounding!).
Microtech Gefell M294 (med. nickel diaphragm cardioid 13dBA)
Microtech Gefell M293 ( m. n. d. omni 14dBA)
Sennheiser MKH 20/40 (10dBA)
All these mics except the KMs are more than 1400/pair.
BTW I suggest to record guitar at a distance of not more than 2 meters in a medium sized room for a good balance between direct/reverberant sound and for better signal/noise ratio.
Regards
Hermann

[mtstudios@charter]

Originally Posted by ksemerick

I'm considering a couple of different microphones for recording solo and ensemble classical guitar at a distance of about 10-15 feet, stereo pair in a live environment. I also occassionaly record live small ensemble jazz using a stereo pair.

Two candidates I am considering are a matched pair of KM 184s and a matched pair of Earthworks QTC30s (similar to the QTC1), and I'm wondering if anyone has experience (positive or negative) with these mics in a similar environment.

My concern with the KM184 is the low frequency roll-off (probably more of a concern with the jazz ensemble). My primary concerns with the Earthworks are the noise, and the general suitability of them for this type of recording.

I would be interested in hearing of other mics that should be on my short list, keeping in mind that I need low noise, high output, and a pretty smooth top for the low SPL classical guitar application. I also do not want to spend more than about $1400 for the pair. As the price approaches $2500, I would probably just save up and buy a pair of Schoeps, which have impressed me in the past. I also have done mono guitar recordings using a single KM184, and that worked pretty well too. I have never used an Earthworks product, so my concerns and perceptions are unfortunately based only on what I have read.

Thanks in advance for any help or advice that you can give.

I have both the KM184 and the QTC 30's. You hit it dead on, the earthworks are a bit hissy. I prefer the 184.

www.bluethumbproductions.com

[eso]

I own a pair of Neumann KM184's and The Earthworks QTC1's (equivalent of the current QTC40, not 30 I believe) and I wouldn't use either for your application. The 184's are very bright and don't sound particularly great or natural to me, unlike their KM84 predecessor (in fact, I'll be selling these soon, to replace with a pair of Gefell M300's), and the Earthworks would probably be too noisy when micing at that distance with softer instruments. In terms of detail and accurate reproduction, the Earthworks would work much better for this type of recording, but at that distance the self-noise would become a problem.

Try a second-hand pair of Bruel & Kjaer (now called DPA), Schoeps, or Gefells. These companies all produce great SDC's with various models, though you will struggle to get a pair within your preferred budget.

[ksemerick]

Thanks, all. I ended up purchasing a matched pair of KM184s, and they have served my needs very well. I have also used them on an English/Irish traditional music recording, and was again very pleased with the results, as were my friends/clients, Sheltering Sky http://www.shelteringsky.net/ .

Incidentally, I have also A/B'd the KMs with a couple of less expensive mics from China, which did a very credible job, much better than I expected. That said, everyone who has listened easily heard the difference between the German and Chinese products, and all preferred the Neumanns, at only 4 times the price! The gain/noise performance is a little better on the KMs, but beyond that I have to start using the "fine wine" descriptors, a temptation I will resist. Suffice to say that many of the differences between the mics were pretty easily "corrected" with EQ, and surprisingly little gain difference (2-3 db) was needed to influence which mics were preferred by most people. While selecting a mic often boils down to a matter of taste (and, of course, application), in this case everyone's taste agreed, even on a blind test with no EQ and the levels carefully matched. That last item, level matching, is so very critical to an A/B comparison, and is so seldom mentioned that I question whether proper care was taken performing this task prior to pronouncing "the clear winner" in a shootout. A db or two matters!

Finally, the Neumann badge looks very cool, has great name recognition, and gives even an amateur recording engineer with modest talents such as myself a big boost in credibility! It's hard to put a price tag on that!

[alessio]

Hi,
I probably own every mic you were talking about and I made a lot of your same recordings. All I can say is that probably the schoeps can do your the job as best. Some days ago I had SE microphone's managing director in my studio with all his beautyful mikes to compare with mines. Even him was surprised with schoeps... Even if I found SE mike very interesting..
Alessio

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by ksemerick

I'm considering a couple of different microphones for recording solo and ensemble classical guitar at a distance of about 10-15 feet, stereo pair in a live environment. I also occassionaly record live small ensemble jazz using a stereo pair.

Two candidates I am considering are a matched pair of KM 184s and a matched pair of Earthworks QTC30s (similar to the QTC1), and I'm wondering if anyone has experience (positive or negative) with these mics in a similar environment.

My concern with the KM184 is the low frequency roll-off (probably more of a concern with the jazz ensemble). My primary concerns with the Earthworks are the noise, and the general suitability of them for this type of recording.

I would be interested in hearing of other mics that should be on my short list, keeping in mind that I need low noise, high output, and a pretty smooth top for the low SPL classical guitar application. I also do not want to spend more than about $1400 for the pair. As the price approaches $2500, I would probably just save up and buy a pair of Schoeps, which have impressed me in the past. I also have done mono guitar recordings using a single KM184, and that worked pretty well too. I have never used an Earthworks product, so my concerns and perceptions are unfortunately based only on what I have read.

Thanks in advance for any help or advice that you can give.

The HF boost in the KM184s should help with a recording distance of 3 to 5 meters. However, many note that the 184s are a bit edgy or strident. The Earthworks do have a noise issue and that might hamper what you are trying to do.

Consider the Gefell M300s instaed of the KM184s. I like them better for solo fingerstyle acoustic and classical guitar. Better yet would be the Gefell M294s, perfect for your application at the distance indicated. More expensive though.

A lesser expensive alternative are the newer Peluso CEMC 6, with modular capsules. I tried a set recently. Very nice.

For my app, closer mic'd solo fingerstyle acoustic and clssical guitar, I'm using either a pair of Schoeps CMC64 or Gefell M294, occasionally with a third LD mic, either a Gefell UMT800 or CAD VX2.

[ksemerick]

I have also used the Schoeps in the past, and wholeheartedly agree that they are great mics, and are easy to recommend for almost any application. They wouldn't be used on so many high end classical recordings if they did not have exceptional performance. The same is true of the B&Ks.

For my application however, amateur classical guitar and small group recordings, and my budget, the additional cost is hard to justify, and both the Schoeps and B&Ks are seldom available used. Even used they are quite expensive. If anyone has a mint pair of Schoeps CMCs with cardioid capsules that they are willing to sell for $1000 or so, let me know, I may be interested. As will everyone else reading this thread!

The M300s I have not had a chance to hear, and would like to do so, although the cost for the matched pair again approaches that of the Schoeps. If my budget were that high, I would simply buy the Schoeps, as the Schoeps are a proven performer, and have an extensive heritage. With the M300 and I would need to spend a fair amount of my time researching them, simply because I am unfamiliar with them. This makes the additional cost of the Schoeps easy to justify in my mind.

So, I'll spend a minute or two defending my poor KM184s, although I'm really defending them more from comments I've read in other posts than anything I have read here.

I have read a lot of negative comments about the KMs here at GearSlutz, some including phrases as strong as "overpriced garbage." My observation is that the more vehemently a claim is made, the less likely it is to be justifiable, or to come from an experienced source, such as an owner of the product! There appears to be a bit of Neumann bashing going on here at GearSlutz, although again I genuinely don't think that is the case with any of the responses in this post.

All of the people I personally know who have used KMs have been quite happy with them, and the cross section, while not extensive, includes professional and amateur musicians, as well as a studio engineer or two.* My personal exerience is that I have found the KMs to be excellent mics, and not strident at all, even when monitoring on a pretty high end system. **

I have consistently received very favorable responses from those who have listened to the recordings made with these mics, including comments from the musicians such as, "They make me sound better than I am!". Granted that this comment does not imply the utmost in sonic accuracy, still, it is rewarding to hear, and can't JUST be attributed to the mic's slight emphasis of the highs. The basic quality has to be there too, and there are plenty of, shall we say, "less satisfying" mics out there with the same type of boost.

The KMs also have virtually no noise, give a detailed, vibrant recording with great imaging and instrument placement, and as a bonus, past experience says that will very likely retain most if not all of their value should I ever decide to sell them. My old Neumann mic, a single KM184 was recently sold on eBay for about the same amount as I paid for it after using it for 5 years. Maybe I lost $50 on it, so the mic cost me about $10/year to use!

I'm sure that by spending two to three times as much, I can get an incremental, or perhaps even a fairly dramatic improvement. On the other hand, given the performance of some of the Chinese mics, for my application it is arguable that I have already reached or exceeded the point of diminishing returns with the Neumanns. Or maybe I didn't quite spend enough, and lasting audio nirvana really is available for just a few dollars more. Seems I've heard this before from the speaker wire saleman...

* Note that members of both of the above groups, particularly the former, tend NOT to be audiophiles. You know who you are; you subscribe to Stereophile AND The Absolute Sound, paint the edges of your CDs green, SWEAR that your "amp clamp" give more stable imaging, spent the price of a good used car on your speaker cables, lay awake at night worrying about time base jitter...I could go on. That describes neither me nor my typical customers, but perhaps to this group the KMs ARE seriously flawed.

**I have a pretty decent monitoring system, as I USED to subscribe to StereoPhile, have a pair of "A" rated speakers, and am a recovering audiophile, albeit one who has always believed in the validity of double blind listening tests, and has never painted my CDs.

[pkautzsch]

Owning both the Schoeps MK4 and the Neumann 184, I can say that both are very fine mics. Anybody bashing the 184 has not used them the right way. The main issue about them is: Never come too close to the source. They sound smallish and nasal if one is less than 4 or 5 ft from the source.
They are great as outriggers for strings, better than the MK4. More bow and that nice "zzzzzzzz" of strings.
BUT: for nylon guitar I'd probably use the Schoeps. The Neumanns easily record the fingernails of the player. Generally: no treble boosted mics for classical guitar. My 2 cents.

[nathanvacha]

IMHO, for your application, the earthworks. I've used exactly those two, and for a lot of acoustic i'd say the 184's work really well, but if you're talking classical i would say the earthworks. They just sound sooo good. Like an instrument in front of you.

And i guess you can approach jazz two ways, clean or color (like anything else i guess), but i would think the earthworks would work great there too.

I have to admit, i'm a fan of the earthworks. Also, last night we were doing some strings w/schoeps and omni earthworks (though i forget the model # now) and i do like the qtc30's better. I think they would be extremely suitable for your situation.