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fafalio
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Question best sequencer for recording classical music

a lot of sound engineers of classical music use sequencers not common.
i read a lot of them use pyramix, sadie and sequoia.
why in classical is not mentioned the usual software as digital performer, logic pro an so on?
what is the reason?
Alessandro.
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Logic and Cubase are better as MIDI sequencers, classical editing is not their main focus. If you are on a Mac, you could consider Nuendo. For the PC, Samplitude or Sequoia.
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soz, but wasn't the only difference from cubase to nuendo the video capability?
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i think the main reason that DAWs such as Sequoia, Sadie, etc. are preferred is that they have robust (4-point) stereo editing capabilities. Not to mention, great crossfade editors.

it's not that the others are sub-par in terms of sonics. just that each is geared for a different aspect of production. for instance, digital performer was historically known as more of a MIDI sequencer.

that being said, there are plenty of "classical" engineers that use logic, and pro tools. it's a matter of preference, like everything else.
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what is it 4 points?is it so important for post production in classical music?
sequoia is a software that starts from recordings and ends on all the post production.
so, i have digital performer and now i m studing recording tecniques for classical music.
so when all is it recorded with digital performer, how can i make production and post production without software as sequoia?
is there other instruments/streets or is better i sell DP and buy sequoia for classical music?
thanks in advance,
Alessandro.
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Smile

Sequoia will do everything, not just classical.

The cheaper Samplitude is very similar, but does not have the 4-point (source / destination) editing.

It is definitely worth the money as it's so fast and easy and you don't have to undo/redo an edit as you can quickly fine-tune it until it's right.

I upgraded from Samplitude to Sequoia - not cheap and I was umming and aaring before I made the decision - but I don't regret it as it's so superb.

Now SADiE has, very sadly, gone into the hands of the receiver; I suppose Sequoia will become the No.1 classical choice (before I would have said SADiE = 1, Sequoia = 2, Pyramix = 3).
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True 4-point, source-destination editing lets you choose and in and an out point in the source, then an in and an out point in the destination. Hit one key and the source is edited into the destination, rippling everything after it. There are variations on this, but that's the basic idea.

For any serious classical editing I would say that this capability (among others) is a must. Of course you can do it in other systems but it's going to take longer.

Pyramix, Sadie, Sequoia, and Sonic are capable performers. I personally have come to love Pyramix despite my initial aversion to the software. If used correctly it can be an extremely efficient and versatile work environment. I've used it for mastering, classical editing, and even film scoring.

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Alessandro, you are really worrying too much. 4-point editing makes life easier when working with many takes in a studio recording. But if you don't know what it is, you simply don't need it... For simple editing of (live) recordings, one can live without it.
Anyhow, Sequoia is not available for the Mac (and it's very expensive). If you have DP, start working and learning with it. I'm sure it's a good piece of software, too.

I think you should stop asking so many theoretical questions and only getting confused by all the different answers. Buy some microphones, buy an audio interface, make some recordings, show them around and see what people tell you.

Your first recordings will not become better because you have audio card XYZ or software ABC. These are all really irrelevant details for now.

When I bought my first mics, there was no Gearslutz, not even any internet worth mentioning. All I could do was read catalogues, some magazines, etc. I decided I couldn't afford Schoeps and bought AKGs with exchangeable capsules (C460). They worked fine for me and I still use them. As it turns out, I've not very much liked the Schoeps mics I tried later, I prefer others... If you likeSchoeps, go and buy them. If you ever want to change or upgrade at a later stage, you can still use the Schoepses as spot mics or whatever.

Daniel
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daniel, people say to me here that for make a complete work i need sadie, pyramix or sequoia for classical recording.
i think it is normal ask if with digital performer, after recording, i will have problem in post production and mastering!
on the other what you say it is true. somotimes it is better to start without thinking to much.
but, for my personality, i want to understand at the beginning the right way.
and if the right way is to sell mac+DP and utilize my dell laptop + sequoia i can thinking of it.
4 point crossfade.....tonight i will dream it
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1500 EUR price difference (!!) between Samplitude and Sequoia will not bring you anything worth it for a practical life ... I think buying Sequoia would be a total waste, Samplitude can do anything you need for your tasks ... Better buy another mic, better AD or preamp - it will help you 1000 times more.

Samplitude is an amazing DAW, ideal for acoustic recording and capable of many things other DAWs cannot do.
But if you are on Mac, you have bad luck
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I use Protools LE. What is 4-point editing?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafalio View Post
daniel, people say to me here that for make a complete work i need sadie, pyramix or sequoia for classical recording.
No, you don't. Their features make life easier when you record and edit every day, but it is possible to live without them... Are you planning to make a living with (classical) recording? If yes, you can spend a lot of money and get the best possible tools now (including more than just two microphones). But if you don't know where you are going yet, work with what you have and what you can afford.
Quote:
i think it is normal ask if with digital performer, after recording, i will have problem in post production and mastering!
Sure. But I think one can safely say that you won't have real problems. DP has a bunch of mastering plugins (some of which you will not even need for classical stuff), it has some editing tools that may not be as good as 4-point editing, but seemto be quite useful. Learn to use them...

Quote:
and if the right way is to sell mac+DP and utilize my dell laptop + sequoia i can thinking of it.
If you already have the Dell, you could consider Samplitude. Don't spend almost € 3000,- for Sequoia now. You can buy it later when you have become rich and famous with classical recording...


Daniel
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I "got by" for years with Samplitude, because that's what I could afford. Now that I have Sequoia, and have gotten used to 4-point cuts, I wouldn't want to go back. But I could go back if I had to. Classical editing in Samplitude is certainly slower, but it's still possible. You get the same fine sound as in Sequoia.

David L. Rick
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I know it is sacrilegious to say on this board, but the tool is far less important than the engineer. I have Pro Tools HD, PTLE, Pyramix, Nuendo, Logic, and a few others, ad you can make wonderful recordings with any of them. Sadie and sequoia are also excellent. I do not know DP, but I am sure it has all of the same basic functions.

Again, the only truly important tool is your ears. everything else are just things!

all the best
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could someone make a practical example of a 4-point editing? just to figure out.....
thanks
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example of 4-point edit

sure.

let's say you have 2 takes of a stereo passage up on your screen...

you listen to the first take, discover a rough spot. you want to insert the rough section from the second take, which is a better performance. nothing new so far...

whereas in other DAWs you might copy/paste, with a 4 point edit, you set "in" and "out" points, and then use "insert", or "replace" commands.

so, again.. in the first take, you set your "in" point just prior to the lousy passage. this is your "destination" EDL. then, you find a suitable "out" point, where you would like to return to the 1st take. (typically, you zoom in all crazy, to the sample-level if you like, and find the most suitable crossfade points)

then, in the second take ("source" EDL), you define, with "in" and "out" points, the section you would like to use as a replacement. (you'll zoom in again, and find that exact spot where the takes will line up...)

then, you hit "replace," and in-it-goes. the bad section disappears. the important thing, is that this happens independent of any relative time constraints, or BPM concerns. any small (or large, for that matter) difference in time of the passages is irrelevant, because all 4 edit points are defined. after the edit, the DAW will usually give you a default crossfade that you can then edit to taste, using the crossfade editor (if applicable.)

this is known as a 4-point edit, because you have defined 4 edit points. there is also a 3-point edit, where you don't need to specify the "out" point in the destination EDL. if you don't specify this out point, the "source" selection length will determine the "destination" out-point.

there's also the insert command, which behaves similarly, except... well, it inserts the source material into the destination at the in point, instead of replacing a passage.

the concept is similar to setting an auto-punch-in region (or whatever you call it) when tracking in protools, but you're not recording a new take, you're taking from an existing take.
it sounds very simple, and it is. but it can be a life-saver because of the accuracy. it's a feature that it borrowed from video editing.

i'm really not sure if anything i just wrote makes any sense at all to you. sorry if it doesn't.

FWIW, the "take manager" feature in the latest version of logic looks really neat, and i'm looking forward to checking it out. anyone have experience with that? looks really simple and intuitive.
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Thanks a lot for the explanation! crystal clear...


Quote:
Originally Posted by hummer View Post

FWIW, the "take manager" feature in the latest version of logic looks really neat, and i'm looking forward to checking it out. anyone have experience with that? looks really simple and intuitive.


Yeah! i use to make this kind of replacements in logic by packing files in one take folder, and then simply dragging the vertical lines to "switch" between the two tracks back and forth...works like a champ...very smooth

Logic 8.0.1 is quite new so sometimes could be very buggy, for example there should be a "takes context-menu" that actually isn't showing...anyway it's only a matter of time


The disadvantage vs. a 4-point is the lack of time stretching.... so you'll need very tight performances.

Anyway, isnt there any software with 4-point editing, running on MAC?
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I think the main reason you find somewhat "exotic" DAWs like Sadie, Sequoia, Sonoma, and Pyramix in the classical world is that these were originally designed as mastering programs, and in some ways classical editing is more like mastering than it is like tracking a rock mix. While these might not be the programs you'll see in pop recording studios, they are what you'll find in most mastering houses, regardless of genre.
For myself, I have PTLE, Logic, and Samplitude (I own both a Mac and a Windows box, and the Mac is an Intel machine that can run BootCamp, so I can boot into Windows on it run Samplitude). At the studio where I work, we use Nuendo on Windows. All of them have their plusses and minuses. If you're already on a Mac, and you like Mac OS X and know it inside and out (and it's my preferred OS as well), and you have DP and know it already, there's no reason why you can't record, edit, and mix classical music on it. I personally know people who do, and have released records with it, to great success. I have PT because that's what I learned on, but I rarely use it these days. I picked up Samplitude (through the Sam for Rent program) because I had a powerful PC that I built that could run it and I heard great things about it, and it is a great program. I do love object-oriented editing, and the built-in plugins are great. I later picked up Logic because I'm also a composer and I thought it would be a cool environment for composing in (and it is, which is something I can't say about either PT or Samplitude). Nuendo is cool, but I don't think there's anything about it that I couldn't do just as easily in Samplitdue or Logic; besides, if you want to stay on the Mac, I've heard the Mac OS version of Nuendo is kind of flaky. I've never used Sequoia, but then again, I don't think I'd need the features that Samplitude lacks. Pyramix and Sonoma look cool because of the ability to do DSD or DXD, but I can't even contemplate the cost of such systems, so forget that.
Bottom line: if you're already using DP and you like it, don't worry. Perhaps you could get some better plugins (EQ and reverb would be the most important for classical), but that can even come later. If you want to try Samplitude, you can run it via BootCamp on an Intel Mac and it runs at full Native speed (in fact, it runs faster on my dual-Core MacBook than on my Athlon64) and the Sam for Rent program is very reasonably priced (I think I pay something like 30 euros per month), but if you don't like Windows (and I can't blame you for that - the only thing I use it for at home is Samplitude), stick with DP. And to be honest, I'm actually thinking of moving away from Samplitude a bit, because in the few months I've been using Logic 8, I've found that its mix buss sounds and EQ sound very good, in fact, very similar to Samplitude.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rick View Post
I "got by" for years with Samplitude, because that's what I could afford. Now that I have Sequoia, and have gotten used to 4-point cuts, I wouldn't want to go back. But I could go back if I had to. Classical editing in Samplitude is certainly slower, but it's still possible. You get the same fine sound as in Sequoia.
I feel exactly the same - you took the words out of my mouth.
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A clear +1 on that comment of David also from me.

Regards,

Sebastian
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Can you apply a 4 point edit over a multitrack edit or is this just for stereo? Can you nudge or move the in/out points if the edit doesn't work or do you have to do the whole edit again? In PT I just slide the in/out point over to another beat that might work without having to get additional material from the good take.

thanks in advance.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmdivito View Post
Can you apply a 4 point edit over a multitrack edit or is this just for stereo? Can you nudge or move the in/out points if the edit doesn't work or do you have to do the whole edit again?
For Sequoia, the answer is yes. Both the edit and the CF editor will work across as many tracks as your project includes.


Daniel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmdivito View Post
Can you nudge or move the in/out points if the edit doesn't work or do you have to do the whole edit again? In PT I just slide the in/out point over to another beat that might work without having to get additional material from the good take.
You just nudge the edit until it works - no need to undo/redo. This is why I love Sequoia so much.
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In Protools LE it is impossible to nudge/tweak a crossfade, you have to delete it every time, and make a new fade.

In Protools HD, nudging fades is possible.
Frankly, the Protools HD isn't worth the money, as its converters are not as good as needed for high-end classical recording.

But I do like Protools, since it is the program I use for 4 years, on a Mac, and I hate working on Windows.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
You just nudge the edit until it works - no need to undo/redo. This is why I love Sequoia so much.
But it is the same in Samplitude, isn´t it ?

I tried Sequoia 4 points editing few times ... I always felt it was easier the "normal" way. For sure, one can get used to it ... But for me it is absolutely not worth 1500 EUR price difference. I think the price difference between Samplitude and Sequoia is quite ridiculous and out of balance (considering that the most things are the same in both programmes).
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Cool

Quote:
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But it is the same in Samplitude, isn´t it ?
No it's not, it's very different in Samplitude - much slower and not as good.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek View Post
I tried Sequoia 4 points editing few times ... I always felt it was easier the "normal" way. For sure, one can get used to it ... But for me it is absolutely not worth 1500 EUR price difference.
I found Sequoia's source/destination (4-point edit) so good I wouldn't go back to Samplitude.

Even a client commented how good it was - we edited two CDs with Samplitude and two with Sequoia - Sequoia was a breeze.

But - I did go on a day's training to get the hang of it, I would not have liked to learn it on my own. I went to URM in the UK and the USA distributor is now doing some on-line training as well.

Sequoia is well worth the extra once you get used to it. It's much faster and you don't say "that'll do" any more as you get the edit perfect.
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Another thread has turned....

The original question about DP I think still has a simple solution. Use what you are comfortable with. The only thing that matters is the end result and your ears. All the rest are just tools. Sequoia is great I'm sure, however it will take me YEARS to be able to edit as fast and accurately as i do on pro tools. This is not because Pro tools is a superior editor. In fact i am sure it is not. I however have been using it for over a decade, and can move an manipulate it faster than anything else right now. It may not have all of the features of some of the other editors, but I know how to make it's features work. That is all you should be concerned with.

Also, I don't have to run pro tools on a God Awful PC box.

Find something in your price range that works for you and record and edit away. Remember that you are the the one making the recording, not the device!

All the best!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luigichelli View Post
The disadvantage vs. a 4-point is the lack of time stretching.... so you'll need very tight performances.
Actually, with 4-point editing, it doesn't matter if the alternate take is a slightly different length or tempo. That's almost always the case with classical editing, because no one uses a click track. Even if the new take is four measures longer, it will work fine.

Samplitude and Sequoia do have time stretching ("Elastic Audio"), but it's used for the completely different purpose of fitting something between fixed time markers. There's also an automated drum alignment mode based on this technology.

David
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Can somebody show some screen shots of a 4point edit? thanks.
For an average CD I make between 100 and 250 edits. I record two tracks, with a Soundfield SPS422 onto a Apogee minime, to Protools Le on mbox. That I will replace by a korg MR1000.
The Soundfield I will replace maybe, with a DPA or A Schoeps Omni pair.

Editing goes like this:
I listen to the first take, decide a point to make the xfade, and locate the same point in the other take. Then I listen and zoom in to the exact place where I'll stop the first and enter the second take. The cross-fade usually is 20-30 ms long.

Then I listen a couple of times if the edit is noticeable or not. If yes, I tweak the fade by making it longer, placing it a bit earlier or later, or find a new spot, sync it again, etc.

For final writing the master, I check all fades again with headphones, re-edit the bad ones.
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Cool

Quote:
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Can somebody show some screen shots of a 4point edit?
You can read the details HERE.

The first picture is of the source / destination window:

The second picture is when you have it approximately correct, you open the crossfade window:-

The third is another view:-

hope this helps.
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