Grand Piano Mic Placement with Orchestra in a bad Room

[jrshap]

Hi All-

I am going to be recording a piano concerto(with orchestra) in a not so good sounding bright room.

The piano will be placed just behind the conductor. I will be using decca tree as the main set up and outriggers as well.

I have left in my mic locker CMC5/MK21 x2 and DPA 4021x2. Both sets are matched.

Of the mics that I have left what would you use for the grand piano and how would you place them? Would you recommend any better mic that I could use(rent)

All of the mics will be going into a Grace m802.

Thanks for you help with this.

[Corran]

Personally, I recorded the Gershwin "I Got Rhythm" and Ellington "New World" a few weeks ago, with a M-S setup in front of the stage but over the piano's open lid. I also close miked the piano but I didn't use ANY of that because it was overpowering the orchestra in the M-S mics.

So not a suggestion but you might not need anything else

[Corran]

Oh yeah, sample:

Excuse the strings and the mp3 quality

[JEGG]

Why not go to a stereo set of omnis (or other) for the orchestra and just have a mic or two to make the piano present. Very, very, low level, mono or stereo.

[fifthcircle]

Piano posts come up pretty often, but I'll give another take for the search engine here....

I love using decca trees for piano concerti... One of the big issues you get is how to keep the piano under control in the main mics in front of the orchestra. You'll find that especially your flanks are going to get a lot of piano in them. The piano mics aren't so much going to provide you with level, but rather a clarity of the instrument that you otherwise wouldn't get.

The other issue to be aware of is reflections off of the lid into your main pair. This is one of the reasons I like the tree- the omnis are picking up just as much from the lid as everywhere else- means the effect isn't as bad. In addition, that center mic will likely get almost none of the piano sound.

As for the piano- I think you'll be in good shape with either. It really depends on what the instrument sounds like. I'd probably start with the MK21's as I love those mics. Also, I'm not a huge fan of the sound of an ORTF cardiod pair on piano- makes the low end a bit weak. Subcardiod or omnis will usually work better.

Place in the curve of the instrument, probably only a couple feet out and spaced 14" or so. I would be careful of the image of the instrument not to get too wide with whatever you use. For this reason, I'll often use an M-S pair. Makes width easy to control and then the leakage into the flanks opens it up more.

When the flanks don't have as much leakage, I'd probably pan 10:00 and 2:00 (or so). Remember, the piano isn't as wide as the orchestra and it shouldn't sound that way. I've even done piano concerti with a single mono spot on the piano.

I'd also put a touch of track delay on whatever you use in the mix... Otherwise the piano will feel too immediate and too far out front. That bit of delay will push it back in the mix and make it fit the orchestra better.

Hope this helps a bit... I know I'm rambling, but I'm tired.

--Ben

[jrshap]

Thanks for all the ideas Ben, Corren and JEGG! Will let you know how it turns out and will post some samples.

J

[engicomposineer]

try ORTF vs. decca......i found this helps take away more of the room sound; i also worked in a not-so-great sounding hall....

[Plush]

It's pretty common to have to work in a room that is multi-use. In other words, a room that is not outstanding for anything!

Here I always use ORTF as a main pair and I make sure that it is hanging over the lid of the piano. Then 2 omni outriggers to be able to goose up the sound of vln and vlncello and provide width.

Mono omni spot on the piano (in crook) gives detail and real bass while ORTF pair above piano supplies the Left-to-Right feel.

[John Willett]

A pair of good boundary mics underneath the piano may be good in this situation.

I used a pair of Neumann GFM 132 this way to good effect.