USA radio stations sound low-fi

[C.Lambrechts]

Originally posted by bigbaby987

ok, i said i wasn't going to post anymore. but please understand this. programmers listen to the songs...they see if they like it. they put it on. if it sounds fine from there it's all good. programmers don't sit around talking about the latest mastering methods and how outrageous they have become. they want music people want to hear and they want it on the air as long as it doesn't sound like it came out of your basement. do you know how many songs made on probably a digi 001 or 002 for mixtapes hit the air and are huge records in new york alone. come on. you do this meticulous stuff for yourselves and not the general public.

good points .... don't like to hear 'em but good points nevertheless.

Glad to see that programmers listen and do care about the stuff they put on the air. No doubt it's integrety can be discussed and no doubt it's subject to many many many other influences then just being a good song ... but ... glad to see you care. It's business and compromise on our side of the record ... surely it's similar on your side. No critisism intended though ... I know from over here how it goes and there's lot's of good people out there too.

[Ruphus]

I was running around in NY in the eraly eighties with a stereo headphone radio. At that time, after knowing European radio as constant trial to adjust antennas in order to get it louder, I actually loved the radio bang in the big apple. It was a bit fatigueing, and I think I didn´t keep the heads on for much more than an hour, but loved how the Stones, Police and Man At Work music smashed my ears.

Today I´ll probably prefer it rather dynamically, but back then ...

I can imagine some liking the sqeezed version ( less perceived noise floor with compression and better audibility of contents in noisy invironment sure sound like practical arguments ) and others rather not wanting to be blown at through the radio.

So, both ways might have their individual radio customers.

The argument however, that people would get spoiled in their judgement when all used to squashed sound can only be true. Experience determines.

Ruphus

[Jim Williams]

Originally posted by biggator6
I often get comments from people who know that I know a bit about recording - asking me why listening to the radio now seems to be 'tiring'.. they say they just can't listen to an hour or two of radio anymore without feeling beat up.

That's the same response I get when I'm in line at the record store after I ask folks how they like the sound of the CD's they're buying.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[studiomusic]

I do music and ads for a big Muzak competitor, chances are if you are in a grocery or drug store, you hear our system. We use mp3s for the audio. 136k for music, 96k for ads.
Music is not compressed, but the ads are smashed.
Mp3s are more than adequate for the medium.

[NuSkoolTone]

Hey bigbaby,

I appreciate your insight, however the justification your industry makes for its practices IS losing market share.

Example: My wife (A singer, and agent for her party band) actually prides herself on being "the average listener"(she does not play anything) because she believes it helps her book work, and create a market for herself by knowing what "people want to hear."

Wouldn't you know that even SHE the "average listener" has noticed that her radio station (K104 in poughkeepsie, NY) has sounded progressivly worse over the last 5 years to the point that she now changes the station and that is no longer the primary station she listens to?

To take it a step further, I personally have more less cut out radio completely. Now I just load up a disc changer full of MP3's (More music that I could ever listen to in one trip) and even with the "crummy" MP3 quality is still WORLDS above dfegad current radio.

Add to that the repetitive nature of the programming (Didn't we just hear that song an HOUR and a half ago?) and 10 minute long commercial escapades(Don't you love switching through ALL of your stations, and not ONE is playing MUSIC?) is giving us the final push to really consider sattelite radio.

I truly feel big labels and radio have dug there own grave and are now starting to get there just desserts. Frankly I couldn't be happier to live to see it.

[LTA]

Originally posted by NuSkoolTone
Add to that the repetitive nature of the programming (Didn't we just hear that song an HOUR and a half ago?) and 10 minute long commercial escapades(Don't you love switching through ALL of your stations, and not ONE is playing MUSIC?) is giving us the final push to really consider sattelite radio.

Heh, i had a little rant about this in the moan zone. It was so popular, i got a single response to it. Thanks for having my back on that, ToddS I'd love satellite radio, but at some point i became old enough to appreciate talk radio on the AM band.

[dbluefield]

Like it or not, the radio stations are far, far more in touch with the likes and dislikes of people who listen to radio than you/we are with the people who buy CDs.

It appears that programmers have adopted P.T. Barnum’s cynical maxim that - “Nobody ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the American people.”

It is surely about the dollars, which I think is a good thing. The bad thing is that I don't think the current business model even closely resembles a healthy competitive market. In short, legalized payola excludes competition from those without the deep pockets, namely today’s independent labels.

IMO, songs that are legally "paid to be played” should carry an advertisement disclaimer at the end of the song - “this song advertisement was approved and paid for by <insert big label name here>."

But that might not work too well with the current business model that perpetuates the illusion of “cool” non-biased programming choice. People want to think that their music taste comes from something more than advertisement – even if it doesn’t. Your average listener, while perhaps blissfully unable to discern or care about fidelity, is also blissfully unaware that the majority of what is promoted as new successfully charted music is in effect a paid advertisement.

As to the notion of “hey its free what do you expect of radio?” The FCC regulates who can license a radio frequency; the taxpayers fund the FCC – nothing is really free.

Music and commerce have historically always been a tough balancing act, particularly when marketing via a public commodity. However, to make arguments claiming that only the current radio business model knows what the “everyday person” wants is apologetic at best. IMO it passes the buck, so to speak, for why so much of music radio today truly stinks.

We don’t know what radio could be like, if there existed a more reasonably competitive market. Gone are the days of driving 45’s to the station, playing a demo on the air, smaller labels competing side by side on billboard etc – and even the old school payola that ironically allowed some smaller labels like Atlantic, Chess and King to compete. The legal antics of today’s game would make even Alan Freed blush, as they say. Surely the entry fee in this game was never so high. Monopolies, by their nature, shun competition. Interesting article here:

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/conten...alk_surowiecki

Since large companies now own exclusive access rights to what is essentially a public commodity, coupled with spot buys and bogus rotation numbers, it is like having a few corporations license public water rights and telling everyone to ignore the sludge they drink. People will buy bottle water. Unfortunately, there seems no alternative in music. We probably need to pursue legislation banning independent promoters and spot buys i.e regulation. Too bad it might have to come to that, instead of radio just doing the right thing.

please understand this. programmers listen to the songs...they see if they like it. they put it on. if it sounds fine from there it's all good.

Do Programmers really make choices outside of independent promoters? I don’t claim to be a radio insider, so I’d like to hear more. What percentage is choice from what is fed to you from Independent promoters? How many spot buys as a percentage of daily rotation?

Seems to me that something must be wrong, or people wouldn’t keep talking about bad radio. When I talk to some of my “everyday person” neighbors they all seem to say the same thing – radio is not so great. Or put another way – do people have radio loyalty anymore? I know I don’t. I jump around.

Was radio better in the past? I think someone pointed out, that the Jocks were responsible, to a large extent, for creating audiences, markets, as well as exposing new talent. Are monopolies, automation and legal payola providing increased consumer choice? (The goal of any capitol competitive market.) Are not the large majority of the current stations simply reaping the continued value of past hits, from a time were perhaps the business model had not been so completely adulterated?

So let's talk about payola and the ubiquitous corporate mergers that have perhaps reduced consumer choice by creating monopolies based around a public commodity. It seems the result is obvious -- radio lacks quality, both in fidelity and content. What am I missing?

Maybe the radio world sees itself through the lenses of PT Barnum's maxim, but I would make a guess that some of the same passion for fidelity is also a passion for good music. I hope there will emerge a better business model that can produce greater music variety and competition -- without the aid of listener demographic research, artist ownership, and legal payola. BTW, when promoting something to “public radio” here in the US, one must compete with the major labels in that “public access market” as well.

Best,

Dave

[picksail]

Originally posted by bigbaby987
radio was never.....ever....ever...meant to be some purist medium of pristine audio...it's about money and always been...or i'm sure you always knew that since you act like you know what marconi was aiming after back in the 1920's. if you really want to get sickening about it then forget cd's...i mean technically the are only 44.1/"16" how dare we 'bit'.......you are entitled to your opinion, but don't discredit what me or any of my co workers do. furthermore...WE producers-yes i have produced commercial releases..some soley for the european market, engineers, artists and more do this for the money--BOTTOM LINE!!! all of this purist's mentality is the fringe benefit to the WORK we do. don't unload your high and mighty speech to me. radio is a medium to entertain the listener. how many average people care what gear you actually used to produce or engineer anything...that goes for people in the clubs, at work, in the CAB, at the airport, or anywhere else. ***wait i see it now...(picture it)two guys sitting at the bar: "hey jay is that an la-2a on the drums...."nah man sounds like a c2 compressor pumping baby...i gotta get to the dance floor-THAT'S ME COMPRESSOR BABY!!" you will never hear 2 ordinary people say that....nor will you sit in a cab and the patrons say" you know there's like a hi frequency band pass that make the station sound so LO-FI" *** not 2 run of the mill average everyday people. you don't hear people standing in line at the supermarket talking about loudness wars. it doesn't happen and frankly they don't care. what they do care about is hearing the music that makes them happy. the only people that do what we do care about the sheer aesthetics that go into this and frankly i could care less what you or any discerning ear like you thinks as long as the listener gets the message and can ENJOY what they HEAR. go listen to you $10,000 record player through your $5000 amp pumping some unadulterated audio into your $20,000 speakers at home and shut up about radio.....and by the way......you're welcome!!!!!!

pardon my spelling only doing it with one hand

Oh OK, now I get it.

[bigbaby987]

this really is my last post about this situation. everyone on this board and yes even some of their "manager" family members are hyper sensitive about audio whether you like it or not. first of all FM radio is only at 32khz so you're going to lose a lot anyways. and how many of you really knows what goes on in a radio station to be sticking your chest out like you're the quality police? none of you know what goes into doing radio production either but we are very discerning about that. did they use native or outboard. do they like scott studios? is it dalet or is pro tools your cup of tea? sounds like they are using an sm7 or an re20 maybe a 27. is that an isdn link or is that cat really in the studio. is that a wheatstone board or is that one of the new digital harris boards they use? i wonder if that cat actually writes his own music beds or is that the latest thing from tm century or xradio. none of you i'm sure sit around wondering half of this stuff, but i can tell in a heartbeat what's going on. and the same goes for the music "we're" doing here. so don't get all touchy because you want people to put us on a pedistal because we're finiky about what we do. heck, i'll sit and produce a station promo for 2 hours, and you would never care. you would even think it were just another commercial or something somebody threw together. but we really do pride ourselves just like you do about your music. i'm a musician, a producer and an engineer but i'll be realistic about it and realize that in the end (this is not meant to discredit what any of us on this board does)......it's about the listener and are they enjoying the music.

i mean do you really think about what it takes to make a really good cup of coffee, or even a bagel, or manhole cover at that. maybe what really goes into making cell phone signals strong. well i know some people in some of these industries and they take it as serious as we take our craft and i promise you they don't know an L2 from a garage door opener. or if everything is distorted.

look i'm not sayin it totally disagree with you here, but lets be realistic at the same time. how many commercial realeses are so loud they are actually distorted. listen to outkast's latest album and you'll hear how loud and distorted it is. but it has sold millions. i'm sure there are many other situations that this falls under. i mean look at artists that can't sing a lick like Britney and are mega stars. now add that onto the fact that her records are just as loud and distorted as outkasts and see how many records she's sold. and you can hear that on your $250,000 SSL when it's on the fritz through ns10's and one has a busted tweeter.

btw.....programmers pick the music...you better believe it. there's a lot of criterion that has to be justified before you just slap a record on the air. does it fit our listeners? do we have too many ballads on the station as is? do i really want to gamble on a good record from someone no one has ever heard before or a pretty good record from an artist people love?(this could go either way) how many new records are in rotation...don't want too many because the station becomes unrecognizable after a while. the list goes on and on.

and one more thing....dave you use the word payola a lot. please inform yourself before you use those types of alegations. it's those jocks from the past that you mentioned that were so useful in just putting a record on the radio that were the most offensive...this 45 normally had something more than vinyl in the sleeve. but that's then. trust me there is a task force(fbi even) that constantly enforces this. i know and have known people that have been in weird situations with that. now speaking of the fcc..they require that you are focused on the community at large. not necessarily about it's audio quality of sound.

this is my last message on this whether you like it or not. this is truth ruth!

God Bless Ya!
bigbaby

[threm]

bigbaby987 wrote:
"God Bless Ya!"

That MUST be a joke!
After reading your posts I thought; Why?
Why do people like you sell their soul to the devil.

You sound like a big w-h-o-r-e.


I'm a big user of radio, don't even own a TV. I can listen for hours while soldering cables etc.
My ears are not very audiophile.
But here in Oslo there's only one channel left that I bear listen to.
The others are, in my ears, ruined by people like you.

[bigbaby987]

who do you concider the devil my friend? does it have something to do with audio? i think not. if you want to get into a conversation on spiritual principalities and so on, then come on. don't ever get this whole music thing mixed up. and if you do then you should look at yourself as Jesus said "take the plank out of your own eye before you try to take the speck out of mine." that's if you're talking about audio. if you are talking about audio, it ain't going to save your soul. do you pray to your gear. it definitely seems like you worship your gear. do you honor your gear more than God? oh my friend be careful of what you speak. i'm no better than any man, and i don't claim to be. i said "God Bless Ya" because i meant it. i hope that he continues to bless you everyday of your life that He may shine through you. you see i have only been defending radio because that's what i do from 9-5 and to let you have a better understanding of why we do what we do, but you have crossed the line. now if you are speaking of the content of radio then maybe you are on the right track, but i hope and pray you aren't referring to your gear, because it could be the destruction of your soul. you dealt the cards and you forced me to play this hand.

God Bless you even more!!!

Bigbaby!!

[LTA]

Originally posted by bigbaby987
this is my last message on this whether you like it or not. this is truth ruth!

As true as my name is ruth

Careful attention to detail knows no industrial boundaries.

While coffee is all about thoroughly cleaning the entire apparatus between brews, carefully measuring and grinding the beans, and getting the percolation to take just the right amount of time, in the end you have to alter everything to get the coffee to conform to someone's taste. There is plenty of room for interpretation, including strength and bean choice, but in the end it will still be recognizable as coffee. So, if you've never had a repeatedly bad cup of coffee from a "vendor," you could say there is no such thing as "bad" radio either. I can think of one chain that is legendary for horrid coffee, and people line up at the drive-through in their cars every morning to grab a cup of joe. Some of these people even sued the establishment because the coffee was too hot. That speaks volumes for the credibility of the masses, imo.

[dbluefield]

and one more thing....dave you use the word payola a lot. please inform yourself before you use those types of alegations.

Not meant as an allegation, simply an observation - I even provided a link to the New Yorker magazine as a reference -- your very city.

To quote James Surowiecki piece - "Spot buys aren’t the same as old-fashioned payola. They’re worse."

So, ok, lets drop the word payola. Lets talk about spot buys.

there's a lot of criterion that has to be justified before you just slap a record on the air. does it fit our listeners?

Is one of the criterion spot buying?

If so, do you think spot buys are a good thing for radio at large?

Honestly, I appreciate your candor Bigbaby - it is kind of fascinating to get an insiders view to a programmers mind.

So I hope you keep posting.

Best,

Dave

[threm]

Ok, ok, let's be friends. I'm not about to start a 'holy' war about content of radio or purposes and values in life. This is Gearslutz after all.

"i said "God Bless Ya" because i meant it. i hope that he continues to bless you everyday of your life that He may shine through you."
I respect that. Thanks for you good hopes.

"do you pray to your gear. it definitely seems like you worship your gear."
I try to practise an attitude of renounciation of my gear. That's not easy but sometimes gear frustrates me too much and is more of a hindrance rather than tools of creativity. To renounce it, to be willing to give it all away if my Boss said so, is the only way to have some piece of mind.

"you are speaking of the content of radio then maybe you are on the right track, but i hope and pray you aren't referring to your gear"
I'm speaking of statements like this (from your previous posts):

"radio was never.....ever....ever...meant to be some purist medium of pristine audio...it's about money and always been..."

"WE producers-yes i have produced commercial releases..some soley for the european market, engineers, artists and more do this for the money--BOTTOM LINE!!! all of this purist's mentality is the fringe benefit to the WORK we do. don't unload your high and mighty speech to me. radio is a medium to entertain the listener. how many average people care what gear you actually used to produce or engineer anything."

"you don't hear people standing in line at the supermarket talking about loudness wars. it doesn't happen and frankly they don't care. what they do care about is hearing the music that makes them happy. the only people that do what we do care about the sheer aesthetics that go into this and frankly i could care less what you or any discerning ear like you thinks as long as the listener gets the message and can ENJOY what they HEAR."

"things should sound good. but don't let this stuff cloud your mind on what people really want."

"people have absolutely no concern with loudness wars or the condition of a the music."

"if sounding what you call "better" made a difference to the listener, the radio stations would be all over it. Like it or not, the radio stations are far, far more in touch with the likes and dislikes of people who listen to radio than you/we are with the people who buy CDs. If it mattered, they would care. To be honest, we aren't making records for other people. We make them for ourselves, and hope it all works out. Radio programmers have no such mindset. And the relatively "non-issue" status of sound quality in the results of their listener feedback seem incomprehensible to us. Because we choose to live in the fantasy that other people care about what we care about........sonic goodness. But mostly, they don't. They just dig J-Lo's big booty, or whatever."

All in all:
You believe you're serving the people giving them "what they want". Of course you have the right to your own opinion.
Other radio people (and quite a few listeners like me) actually have concerns regarding the extreme com·mer·cial·iz·ing ('To do, exploit, or make chiefly for financial gain. To sacrifice the quality
for profit') of the radio, both regarding audio quality and content.
Not all radio people subscribe to what seems like your definition of success; 'the more listeners we have the better we are.'
Some people out there working with radio do in fact have another mission. They have values they want to bring on, they're challenged to educate and inform rather than just stimulate people to have a smoother rat race.
What you say is your opnion and reflects your attitudes and values.

"who do you concider the devil my friend?"
Ok, I should've said Mammon. In the old book they're often two sides of the same ugly face.

[isa215]

while the thought of 'the radio treatment' to any well recorded/mixed/produced track may well send shivers down the spine - I think we have to remember that radio is still a very important medium in getting tracks heard by large audiences. - it's a shame the medium has many pitfalls (both on the business side and the technical/quality) - but it's still a v. necessary part of promotion/'the biz' - even with such newer evils as MTV, mp3s etc.

To be fair I have heard some good things from digital radio - and though it has been v. slow to take off (at least here in the UK) - I'm hoping that it will help to focus attention on the quality of radio broadcasting in the future.