Help Me Design a Location Rig

[dbluefield]

Hello Location Professionals!

I'm looking to put together a location rig capable of recording:

1)Rock Club shows
2) Church/orchestral events
3) Jazz /school ensembles

The full gamut, from rock acts -- mic splitting, extra mics -- to classical, jazz, choral ensembles ie schools and other locations -- ORTF, stereo recordings with spot mics etc. Basically if somebody wants something recorded - I can say "sure Ill do that ." That said - this is an on-premise concept and NOT a REMOTE VAN setup. Headphones, pres, mics, source: Press RECORD. Geared towards local talent, small clubs and church/schools (like for my kids school).

I was thinking maybe a few lunch box type suggestions -- pre/eq that would also be useful in my control room. Fill in mic suggestions. Splitters etc -- anything that would get me started on the right path. Budget could go as high as lets say 5k(could go more if necessary).

You'll notice I have a recorder already (radar), and an old 1604 Mackie, plus mics and DI's. Should I make my own splitters etc? Maybe a few good pres on top of the mackies?

Here's a list of what I have:

Mics: 414buls, geffell UMT70sFET, royer stereo ribbon, (4)sm57's, (2)421s, CADe300, sm58, RE20.

Recorder: RADAR nyquist - already rack mounted. Need to make extra I/O and maybe purchase an additional session controller. Rack mount monitor. Im not really thinking of real time backups- cause the radar is so damn solid --but I am open to suggestions on the easiest backup route outside the radar--radar does its own backups (not at the same time however).

Mixer: Mackie 1604. (Trident 80C in studio- not portable.)

Mic cables and plenty of DI's.


Thanks in advance!


Dave

[chris319]

Mics, preamps and mixers are all well and fine.

Think power conditioning. I once had a Spanish radio station coming in through the AC line when I was on a session in Las Vegas. The solution was a $50 consumer-grade power strip with EMI/RFI filtering. Maybe get a computer-style UPS that can handle the power draw of your system.

Think mic stands. Maybe get a motion picture light stand that goes up high. B&H Photo or Markertek will carry these. And a sandbag or two.

[dbluefield]

bump
thanx Chris

[Jungle Jazz]

I'd suggest getting at least a pair of good quality small diaphragm condenser microphones to add to your mic collection.

[dbluefield]

Thanx Jazz - want to make a particular suggestion? Versatility , applications?

Keep em coming folks

[chris319]

A lot of people like these:

OktavaMod - Affordable Boutique Microphones

[mrsteaks]

If you're thinking two track backup, then maybe a real time CD recorder (HHB 630) or a Masterlink or the Korg MR1000 would work for you. Plus, when you do smaller gigs that only require a stereo pair of mics, you could use those recorders alone and not have to lug your RADAR rig with you. Mike Hughes posted a shot of his rig in the "Post your pictures of your portable recording equipment - page four" thread. His setup is really nice, and to be honest, I suspect several folks use a setup pretty similar to that for smaller work. I do, and I swear by it. For instance, you can use your Royer ribbon (SF-12, right?) with an AEA TRP along with the MR1000 and MLink or HHB 830 and have a nice two track rig, and then an excellent "scratch copy" safety system for the "big rig". Food for thought!

Good luck, have fun in the pursuit!

[Kalara]

Coooool Man!

Good on ya for the Radar! I STILL don't leave the house without a redundant rig. Check out ebay or some used shops if necessary and pick up a Mackie or an Alesis or DA-88's (lot of rack space thought)..ANYTHING. Trust me, it only takes one time.....

Next is UPS. Get a battery backup. They're cheap. Again, it only takes one time......

Splitter system. There are a ton of ways to do this. What I did first is got into a splitter system without snake and then rented the snake from local pa companies.

For me, the golden trio (redundant,battery,isolation) is first and foremost. You can go back and forth forever on all the FUN stuff: mics.....pre's.....compression....mics....pre's....

Good Luck! It looks like you have all the right things in place. Oh, yeah...make it all look good. It shows you have your shit together.

Mark

[noamraz]

Hey Mark,
What do you mean by "isolation"?
If you are talking about an isolated splitting system, would be very happy to know which do you recommend to use?

Best Regards, Noam.

[Just Dan]

WRT 2-track backups. I would avoid using a direct-to-cd deck like the HHBs and such. I've fortunately never had a problem with them totally failing in a recording job. But have had them fail when just dubbing stuff at home.

Biggest problem is that you don't know until you're burning or finalizing a disc if it was a bad disc or not. When I was using an HHB I was always worried about a bad disc. So a big weight was taken off my shoulders when I finally moved to a Masterlink.

Granted, even the Masterlink hard drive could decide to go kaput, but then again, so can a $15,000 fancy system.

Daniel

[dbluefield]

Awesome replies!!

This is why GS is so great!

Mark-- I dig the golden trio! Love to hear particular recommendations on splitters, batteries, redundant, and isolation.

Dan, I agree that media is a weak link - is the masterlink still a viable format? I thought it was a format converter (I really haven't looked into them).

Jazz, thanx for the SDC reccomendation...I think they would compliment my situation. Stupid question: are most ORTF situations using SDC? I'm tempted to track down another 414Buls - I just had my old one repaired by AKG.

Chris Ill look into the Oktavas - think I found another thread on those and the dual capsules....maybe it was something different.


I'm liking what Im hearing so far...maybe the mackie pres are fine.....for now...perhaps a few well chosen mics.....KEEP the nitty gritty coming though....I seriously want to know what you wouldn't leave home without given the minimal gear I got.


Best,

Dave

[dbluefield]

Mr. Steaks (dig the moniker) ,

Yes sf-12 by Royer - I love this mic. It does have a little bit of S/N issue with my trident pres on low volume instruments....I wonder if something else would make it shine...for example, I recorded a mandolin track and there was a teeny bit of hiss...not bad mind you..kinda tape like...

But yes ...why not have a nice stereo setup? Thanx for getting me thinking.

I want no more than two rack cases of stuff -- ideally -- including the radar.....but smaller options would be very cool too.

I guess I figure why not do stereo on the radar and overkill with spot mics or other stereo spreads cause I have the tracks. (not trying to introduce a recording debate here).

Im really interested in the KISS (keep it simple stupid) stuff that you guys wouldn't leave home without.... for nice workflow and proper engineering etc. Batt backups.....splitters....I know there are lots of ways to do things....seeing if I can flush out some consensus....


Thanx,

Dave

[aussie_techie]

a 2ch pre for the royer would be a good thing. i like the Buzz Audio SSA1.1 the best out of what ive used with an SF12. im sure the MA2.2 is even better if you have the cash.

if you have to use long cable runs putting a pre near the mic helps as well. the SF12 has such a low output that it doesnt drive long cable runs very well.

i think getting a second 414 would be a great idea, they are versatile mics and the switchable patters mean you can use them however you want.

for orchestral recordings i think it best to keep it simple most of the time and mainly work with your stereo pair but there is nothing wrong spot mic'ing or using several stereo pairs. if you limited for space and have to put your mics closer than you would like a wider pair along with the SF12 can be nice.

[Just Dan]

The Masterlink records to AIFF files. The only annoying thing is that there's no Firewire to go straight to a computer. So you have to burn CD's and then transport them physically. That's the one thing that lead me to going to a laptop system and leave the Masterlink as a backup.

I wish Tascam had come out with their model DVD recorder that had a hard drive some time back, as I think it has a connection for dumping the files to a computer. But even if it doesn't, you can fit a heck of alot more on the DVDs than the CDs.

For just a down and dirty 2-track backup, I think the Masterlink is fine. So far I've never had a problem. And going in digital avoids the converters which most people say aren't great.

Daniel

[mrsteaks]

I've got to tell you my SF12 just loves the AEA TRP! It is a quiet, smooth preamp. The mic sound just delicious though it. Totally agree on the SF12 not liking long cable runs. I usually set up near the mic, if I can't, I'll leave the TRP near the stage box for my snake and send it's signal to where I have the recorders. If you want to hear how the combo sounds, go to my website, to the "samples" page, and open one of the "Jos Milton" MP3's.

As for the HHB being squirrely, well, I can honestly say I've NEVER had an issue with it. The damn thing just works! The DACs in it are quite good and it sounds good. I am careful to use premium (Taiyo Yuden) disks in it so I don't burn a coaster. That is likely why I've never had an issue with it.

I have had the Masterlink wig out on several occasions. Thank heavens I had the HHB!

We all have our stories!

[dbluefield]

researching the AEA TRP online....seems a few people have not had the super quiet results they wished they had , but like it for choral work.....

Will TRP help? - I wonder if anyone could comment... I've recently purchased the Royer SF12 at a decent second-hand price. I've only had the chance to try it out once on the application for which I bought it - for small ensenble choral recording. I r


The DPA 4023s in ORTF looks interesting- good for live concerts due to less audience noise. Cool little ORTF/XY bracket that comes with them.

I think maybe a small diaphragm condenser pair might suit me more than a ribbon pre....but not ruling the AEA TRP out. I use the SF 12 primarily on acoustic guitar, drum overhead and guitar amps. It would be great to try as a live stereo mic too.

Looking into the True Systems Precision8 preamps also - reading some of Steves posts. Id also loike a micpre/eq that would compliment my trident pres...maybe something Neve/API like.... A small lunchbox that I could use for stereo/field work and use back in the studio for a different flavor for overdubs, critical vocals etc. I am lacking a really accurate para EQ that I know I could make use of...

Thanx!

Do you guys really have battery backups and power conditioning?

Dave

[mrsteaks]

Dave,

In my recorder racks I use Tripp-Lite battery backup/power conditioners. They add a lot of weight to the racks, but, IMO, the safety they provide is worth it.

Just a smidgen more on the TRP - to me it is very quiet. I like it for piano, voice, choral, and acoustic guitar, used with the SF12. I've used it successfully with a pair of Cascade Fatheads I have, too. I also have an ADL 600, which also offers high gain, but it is not as quiet as the TRP.

As for the SF12, I've talked about it because you have one. It is NOT the be all and end all mic (what is?), but I've found it useful in a lot of applications. The Blumlien array can be tricky, the acoustic has to right. But, when the planets align, I've gotten some wonderful recordings with it. And some bad ones! You can use the SF12 in MS, or even as a single mic (using one half of it).

I know of a few DPA lovers here, and hopefully they will chime in about them. I've heard wonderful things about the 4006's, and have heard them in use for choral and string, and they were marvelous.

[dbluefield]

Thanx Mark!

All great advice. It would probably be worth it to get the TRP since I already have the SF12. I do use it regularily either as a single mic or summed on the console when recording electric guitar.

I think the SF12 is a wonderful mic. It would probably behoove me to get the TRP, simply because it would give me some more options in the studio as well.

I have been reading that Blumlien can be tricky period. Would you consider using anything with the SF12/TRP combo as an additional safety net? Say a wider cardiod spread like (2) 414buls (since I already have one of those)? Do allot of the location guys like a inconspicuous SD setup in ORTF? Since I dont have any SD condensers yet -- my reasoning leads me there -- would be useful for other studio applications as well.

I know there is no perfect mic setup, but I do like the idea of something like the DPAs -- where quality is very good; comes with KISS brackets; and can be used for a wide variety of applications. Maybe some DPA users can chime in here!

Im open for any mic suggestions!

Nobody seems to think I need any additional mic pres.....hmmmmm..... (besides the SF12/TRP combo we have been discussing) .

Just to keep the discussion clear -- I only have a Mackie 1604 for location work so far. Personally, I will probably be getting some kind of additional mic pre -- simply because I want another flavor for the studio. I just thought it would be nice to kill 2 birds with one stone and get a stereo pre great for general location work as well.

Thanx for all the thoughtful suggestions so far.!!!

Im googling the Tripp power backup ASAP.

Dave

[dbluefield]

Has anybody tried the SF12 as M/S? Results?

[mrsteaks]

whn Hi, Dave;

Frankly I'm surprised that some of the more experienced folks haven't joined this discussion. My experience (and therefore advice) is limited compared to many here.

However, yes, I have used the SF12 as a "main pair" with flanking omni's. It works pretty well. I have tried the SF12 in MS, but haven't done anything serious with it in that array. There are others here who report great success using it in MS, though.

I started out with a 1604VLZ. I have a associate who uses a 1202 constantly, and gets pretty darn good results. If you're careful about keeping the thing linear it can sound acceptable. I still use my 1604 for monitoring when I do multitrack setups.

There are as many ideas about preamps as there are people on this forum. Each preamp has a flavor, and it can affect the sound of a mic anywhere from "profound" to "slightly". Many folks swear by the DAV preamps, just love them. Grace pres are also popular, as are Milennia. I've used the Grace 101 and like it. It's very open, clean, and quiet. I've not used either the DAV or the Milennia offerings, so no comment. I have an Earthworks Lab 102 which I like, but I have to be careful with mic choices with it. My ADL 600 gets used fairly often, and it sounds quite nice, especially when used on orchestra or piano in a good room. I also have a Mackie Onyx 800R, and it's good if you keep it buried in the mix (spots) and keep the gain waaaay down on it. If I'm not careful it can sound pretty raspy. No, it doesn't get used much!

I'd suggest using the "preamp" tag on the bottom of the page and read the threads you find.

Good luck!

[dbluefield]

I'm seriously looking at getting the True Systems Precision 8

Great bang for the Buck! Built in MS decoder and DI's - it seems like a no brainer.....

[smarsland]

Originally Posted by dbluefield

I'm seriously looking at getting the True Systems Precision 8

Great bang for the Buck! Built in MS decoder and DI's - it seems like a no brainer.....

I love that thing. If you can pick it up used, even better. unfortunately, the deal I found on one fell through. I just sold my DSUB cable to some dude from Canada.

[aussie_techie]

if all you have is an SF12 then it does need to be a fair distance from the stage, which isnt always possible. however when it is closer then a spaced pair of 4006 in combination with the SF12 sound fantastic. the benefits and pitfalls of both mics and positions compliment each other very well. thats my limited experience anyway, there are just so many possibilities you need to try things for your self.

I have found Blumlein can often be an advantage in less than ideal acoustic environments, as you get the benefit of a 360 degree pickup without the vertical pickup. so you tend to get more focus on the instruments which leaves them a little dryer sounding, particularly if there is a low ceiling it works very well. as always though its having the right tool for the right job.

as your thinking of dropping the cash on DPAs anyway i would got for the 4006, as having a pair of omnis will compliment the directional Blumlein pair.

more pres will defiantly help, but there are just so many options and few people would of use enough of them to make any kind of comparison. you just have to pick a few you think will be good and then listen for your self. while you already have some pres that are usuable the main upgraid in pres needs to be on your stereo pair(s) the SF12 of course needing low noise with haps of gain and the if your goign to drop the cash on DPAs then you need a good pre for them as putting such an accurate mic through a wackie would just be painful.

i dont think having an MS decoder in a pre is of much benefit as you want to retain the signal as mid and side so you can adjust it laster.

[dbluefield]

Thanx Aussie,

A spaced pair with the SF12 sounds interesting. From the little bit of reading I've done so far -- I guess flanking omnis to ORTF or blumlein are pretty common? I'm thinking of getting John Eargle's "The microphone Book". Any other reading suggestions are welsome!

Im not married to the DPA idea - also looking at the Senn MKH series. Im also thinking an extra 414Buls would do for spaced omnis with my SF12 (and cheaper!). Since I already have one 414buls.

Can you or anyone elaborate on why having the built in decoder is not that great? Maybe I can answer it myself - you don't want to commit to the M/S split on site - right? I can do the M/S split on my console - but results can be tricky -- or so the manufacturer of the True system pres explained to me. No experience with M/S yet obviously -- so any pointers are very welcome! I guess that most of you guys do the decoding in the DAW?


Dave

[mrsteaks]

Originally Posted by dbluefield

Can you or anyone elaborate on why having the built in decoder is not that great? Maybe I can answer it myself - you don't want to commit to the M/S split on site - right? I can do the M/S split on my console - but results can be tricky -- or so the manufacturer of the True system pres explained to me. No experience with M/S yet obviously -- so any pointers are very welcome! I guess that most of you guys do the decoding in the DAW?

Dave

Right, you can decode M/S in the DAW. The reason for not using the decoder in the pre is that M/S gives you the ability to manipulate the stereo image. If you do it to the recorder, then the image you recorded is the one you're stuck with. If you record the M/S tracks, then decode in the DAW, you can manipulate the image in post. What that does for you is obvious!

[aussie_techie]

Originally Posted by dbluefield

Im not married to the DPA idea

I would be if i had the cash. DPAs give you what ever is in front of them. as i said earlier a second 414 is always good to have but it isnt in the same league as a DPA, neither is the price. I cant comment on MKH mics

i dont usually get the opportunity to use flanking 4006s with an SF12 so i would not say its a standard practice, but when i have done it its been very nice. to be fair they have been in situation where the SF12 alone wouldnt of been the best anyway so the combination has been great. positioning of a single pair compared to an array can be different.

to what mrsteaks regarding the MS decoder
you could always recorded the xy signal and then re encode to MS if you need to but its an extra step that i would only consider if you have no other way to monitor xy while recording. ou need to try for your self if MS with the SF12 is even going to be worth it, i know MS can be a very powerful tool but with the SF12 i always just use xy. you really need to decide for your self.