Insert point as direct out for multitrack recording

[deardaddy]

Hello,

I'm about to do a live recording where I'll have a Yamaha 01V96 console.
As some of you might know, there are 12 mic preamp with an insert point but no direct out.

I was planning to do this : use the insert point and send the signal to a patchbay then bring it back to the console via the insert point with one output of the patchbay and send the other output of the patchbay to the line in of the HD24 (I'll use the ADAT out of the 01V96 for another HD24)

I have to tell you that I need the 01V96 to do a roughmix for the production team.

Hope you understand what I want to do :-)

Do you think that this will work ?
Could I have ground problems ?

I'm asking you all this because I have to buy the patchbay, cables, ... so I prefer to ask before spending money on a "not working" solution.

Thanks for your time.


Pascal

[s.d.finley]

Hi,

hosa makes an insert cheat cable. Basically, it tricks the mixer into thinking it has an insert cable hooked up, when the hosa cable actually sends the channel out instead, no return. I have a couple and they work great, with the exception that the send is pre fader, of course!!

http://www.midi-store.com/Hosa-DOC-1...e-p-16780.html

check it out!

[deardaddy]

Thanks for the reply.
I just had a look at the cable you mentionned, pretty nice, it would do what I want, sure.
I'll check if I can find them here in Europe.

What do you think of the solution I proposed, do you think it could also work ?

Take care.

[Sandersonic]

Hi Pascal,
I'm not familiar with the 01V96, but some inserts allow you to half-insert a plug (one click) to tap the signal without interrupting the channel signal. Failing that, you could use a half-normalled patch bay. Please see the attached pdf, it's for a Neutrik (Rean) NYS-SPP-L patch bay. They're quite affordable and should do the trick for you.
In this case, you would plug a "Y" cable into your insert. The send plug of the "Y" cable goes to row A rear. The return of the "Y" cable would go to row B rear. You then feed your HD24 from row A front.

[deardaddy]

Frank,


Thank you very much.
It is really funny because, while you were writing your post mentionning the Neutrik patchbay, I was on Neutrik's website checking the NYS-SPP-L block diagram.

When you speak of a Y cable, is a what is usually called an insert cable (one stereo jack and 2 mono jacks).

Thanks for your time.


Pascal

[Sandersonic]

Originally Posted by deardaddy

When you speak of a Y cable, is a what is usually called an insert cable (one stereo jack and 2 mono jacks).

That's correct, a "Y" cable and an insert cable are the same thing.

BTW: Did you try the half-insert trick?


Good luck!

[deardaddy]

No, I can't try the half insert trick for the moment, my 01V96 is out for concerts for several days, but I'll try it as soon as it is back.

I was looking at this Y cable : http://www.thomann.de/fr/the_sssnake...abel_4fach.htm


Pascal

[Sandersonic]

That's one option,
I have a few of these in my studio. The build quality is excellent and the price is right. They're also available in different lengths.

[deardaddy]

Thank you Franck for the advice on the cables, I'll have a look at the one you mentionned.
Do you think that these Cordial cables are better than the ones I spoke in my earlier post ?

Mappee, thanks for your input.
I thought of this solution but 2 things keep me from that option : First, security, what if the recorder crashes and I have to shut it off to restart it, I won't have any signal going back to the console for a moment. That means no rough mix for a moment, this mix is also my backup mix.

Second reason, the budget. I think that this "insert as direct out" idea will cost far less than buying 12ch of preamp (wich I already have in the 01V96 by the way).
What do yout think ?

Take care

[Sandersonic]

Yes, I do think the Cordials are better. Cheap cables are never worth it.

[deardaddy]

Thank you for your advice.

Best regards from Belgium ....



Pascal

[schobersound]

Originally Posted by s.d.finley

Hi,

hosa makes an insert cheat cable. Basically, it tricks the mixer into thinking it has an insert cable hooked up, when the hosa cable actually sends the channel out instead, no return. I have a couple and they work great, with the exception that the send is pre fader, of course!!

I would assume that to replicate this cable, i would just need to tie the ring and tip one the end plugging into the insert?

[schobersound]

so nevermind my previous post. i just made some cables for this purpose. i soldered a jumper from the ring to the tip on the end plugging into the insert. on the end plugging into the interface, i only soldered the cable going to the tip. works like a charm.

[panatrope]

I use this technique regularly, and have looms of 8 cables and 4 cables for various gigs, taking audio from the insert point, which includes usually only the preamp trim gain and the high-pass filter.

The insert point is almost always a TRS jack with send on the Tip and return on the Ring. Inserting a TRS plug with the Tip and Ring shorted means that it is the same as the normalled connection when the plug is not inserted, and the audio path never leaves the mixer. Note this is an unbalanced connection, and as a result, care needs to be taken to avoid a ground loop.

Now connect to the shorted Tip/Ring connection (plus sleeve of course for ground) and run an unbalanced cable to a T/S connector and you have your bridged audio connection for recording (probably around a 'consumer' -10dBV). This is the standard insert patch cable - TRS one end, TS the other, and there are many examples. Mine come from HOSA, they are looked after, cleaned and checked regularly on a tester, and have never given a problem. (The 'Y-cord' TRS-to-2xTS are genuinely insert cables for external FX, and are not particularly useful for this sort of work.)

Note that some devices like the JoeCo boxes use cables with TRS at each end. The box normally connects the Tip and Ring at the non-mixer end, but allows for playback through the mixer by removing the normal connection and using the return leg to play back the recovered audio, eg., for virtual sound check.

The half-insert trick can be used - it is described in the manual for my ancient 1202 VLZ - in an absolute emergency. But in the rough-house of live work, it is prone to accidental movement resulting in either loss of recording audio or interruption of FOH audio. It is not recommended except in the privacy of your own home studio ...

[panatrope]

Originally Posted by schobersound

so nevermind my previous post. i just made some cables for this purpose. i soldered a jumper from the ring to the tip on the end plugging into the insert. on the end plugging into the interface, i only soldered the cable going to the tip. works like a charm.

This is fine except the Ring on the interface end needs to be grounded, ie., connected to the Sleeve - this may leave the - input connection to the interface open, which may lead to an increase in noise (check you interface manual). In the circumstances, far better to use only a TS plug at the interface end.

[loujudson]

Originally Posted by Sandersonic

That's correct, a "Y" cable and an insert cable are the same thing.

BTW: Did you try the half-insert trick?


Good luck!

Picky me, but an insert cable and a Y cable are NOT the same. a Y cable is mono at all thre ends. An insert cable is mono at two ends and stereo (TRS) at one end.

Just because an insert cable looks like a Y does not make the terminology correct.
L

[philper]

I've done a lot of recording off inserts with consoles that didn't have direct outs, enough that I made up some "bonehead" insert-out cables, per a suggestion from someone here, I think. Basically it's a TRS-TRS snake with the connectors on the insert end fitted with a 3/8ths nut (like for a bolt) held in place with paper tape, so that there is no risk of the connector being jammed all the way in to the insert out during a show. This accomplishes a safer "half-jack" output that doesn't break the internal insert signal flow of the console.

phil p

[panatrope]

Originally Posted by philper

I've done a lot of recording off inserts with consoles that didn't have direct outs, enough that I made up some "bonehead" insert-out cables, per a suggestion from someone here, I think. Basically it's a TRS-TRS snake with the connectors on the insert end fitted with a 3/8ths nut (like for a bolt) held in place with paper tape, so that there is no risk of the connector being jammed all the way in to the insert out during a show. This accomplishes a safer "half-jack" output that doesn't break the internal insert signal flow of the console.

phil p

The potential problem with this solution is that the dimensions of the head of a TRS plug and the jack contacts are not well standardised and it is possible to over or under insert the plug. (It's like " you can't be pregnant, I only put it in a little bit!")

The inserted plug with Tip and Ring connected together should not result in signal break, as by the time the tip is moving the tip contact in the jack to break the 'normalling" connection, contact is already made between Tip and Ring fingers in the jack and there will be no interruption. I have checked with most of the mixers I have encountered, and provided the jack is inserted positively with a normal firm movement, I have not been able to detect an audio interruption.

The only risk is if the connection at the other end is terminated in an inappropriate impedance, which may cause a drop in signal level on insertion. But if this happens, it will happen regardless of whether the "half-in" or "all-in" method is used.