Horn Mic'ing for pop/ska-punk session!!!

[Kadden Heart]

What's up everyone!

This is the first time i'll be tracking and mixing a ska-punk project (i.e less than jake, bosstones, reel big fish)

I'd like to hear what you guys would be using on
trumpet
trombone
sax
french horn
for this type of thing, also i've not worked with horns before so what are you're tips/techniques for getting these to cut through
(roll offs, scooping and freq's, swuashing, etc...)
and what are some general good places to start with mic positioning????

i've been referncing all of these albums to make sure i have a solid iea of what i should be doing, but any help is GREATLY appreciated.

panning techniques for horns, guitars, etcc..??

Thanks a lot

[Kadden Heart]

sorry.

i don't have very many options at ALL for the horn mic'ing (since the band took me to this studio with very few mics)

i have access to
2- 414's
3- md421's
a few audio technica LDC
1-441
4-57
1-re20
a stereo DPA small diahragm pair. (not sure the model)

this is pretty much all i have to work with.
although i could probably borrow some others.

[larrykane]

414- trumpet in cardioid and sax trumpet from prox 20" out from the bell 6" off center
sax -414 in cardioid or wide cardiod if its a new one mike 10" from bell pointed at the middle of the body near the g# pinkie key cluster (he'll show you where that is)
md421's good mikes but why engineers keep trying these on sax I dunno as a sax player I'd rather play into a telephone in the fishtank
audio technica LDC-try on french horn you'll have to move it around a lot about a foot away maybe even start with headphones on and move it while he plays. If he's a legit player he'll do that hand up the bell thing and there will be a definite sweet spot, but you'll have to find it if you're tracking separate horns at separate times try the french horn mike back a couple of feet placed down low too.
re20 try this on the trombone second choice might be the 441 or AT same mike position as trumpet but
Here's the rub if you just aim down ANY brass or woodwind bell you're only gonna get core sound you want to find that happy balance between picking up partials (harmonics) that are best captured from farther away but not getting the crosstalk between the mikes. If the brass sound like a bunch of ducks then the mikes are too close Hope this helps.
A starting point at least.
Oh-If you have the tracks available put up a room mike and track it separate you may use it to blend in later, although listen for phase issues if you do.

[Kadden Heart]

Thanks Larry,
great starting point.
that will help out a llot!!

[tINY]

They are going to be used to playing together, so you'll have to get the best separation you can. For Ska, you'll want a mic on each piece.

I'd be thinking about the 421 on the Trumpet and 'Bone. Maybe the RE20 on the Frenchie. put the mics about a foot from the bell.

Try different LDC mics on the sax - hyper-cardioid pattern if available.

For EQ and such, it depends on the arangement. Often, you can get by with little or none.



-tINY

[Kadden Heart]

Thanks Tiny,

the horns will all be overdubbed, so i'm thinking about having them do their parts seperately (they already said they could do this) and then blending it,...

but if i have them play at once i can use a stereo for room,..but then i have to deal with the bleed on individual mics

should i do dubs seperately or together?

thanks

[tbrault]

To me, I'd say its a function of how good these guys are at nailing their parts and balancing themselves.

If you've got the hardware to do it, and they're up for it, then try and roll with them all together with spot mics for more tonal & balance control. This can give a more cohesive performance aesthetic if they're good enough.

If one of them is gonna flub every horn line, then don't bother doing them all at once.

Good luck!

[Kadden Heart]

thanks!
i'll keep that in mind.
what do you guys think about the room,...
should i use the big hardwood drum room,
the big but quiet piano area
or the iso booths?

i usually like to do stuff in the big rooms with close mics, so i can still capture the same general ambience for everything, but i'm not sure about horns.

[grifops]

Totally depends on the horn section, as tbrault, said. I've played sax in ska bands, definitley the best horn recordings for this type of music are done with the whole section playing together, IN TUNE, feeding off of each other. The performance doesn't need to be perfect, but they do need to be in tune.

Lots of these punk-ska bands have really terrible horn sections, chances are they have no idea what intonation is. Encourage them to spend a good amount of time warming up and getting in tune with each other if they aren't used to doing so or if they are young and embarrassed. Maybe they will be excellent!

The guys I have recorded with have been VERY good at their own horns and myself being OK we have been successful recording as a group. The engineer is always prepared for the worst and then gets excited when we start playing decently.

So, from engineers I have recorded with, and doing recording myself, you should be prepared to track everything individually if they can't stay in tune (individually so you can edit easily), but also be prepared to record as a group (if they are a tight section).

I always like dynamics at the bell as usual for brass, pointed above the bell slightly for sax. Then a condenser at a distance (from 4' up to across the room) for more dynamics, blend with the dynamics accordingly. Or if doing sax individually, the condenser to the side, diaphragm pointed at the keys. You have a perfect selection of mics to work with.

I would go with the big quiet piano room, horns can get really "boomy" in an active room.

[Shadow_7]

The 421's should do alright for the brasses. T-Bone, Trumpet, Frenchie. I much prefer the sound of a good ribbon on brasses myself. Even some not so good ribbons will sound better on brasses. You don't want the mics that close to the brasses. Especially the trombone player. Put it close if you want, and watch them back away from the mic when it comes time to play.

[Kadden Heart]

thanks a lot guys.

hey i tried to find some pictures (just for a visual) but i'm having trouble finding studio horns mic'ed up

anyone have any they can post?

thanks a lot for all the help

[nine99nine]

I have always been a big fan of Reel Big Fish and the horn sounds that they get. Their latest DVD out has a glimpse of how they recorded horns for their new album "monkeys for nothing...". Here is the YouTube Link. Part 3 has a section dedicated to the horn section. They will show spots every now and then of the horn section in the studio. Hope this helps. I have gotten some good sounds with powerful players by having them play all at the same time, but get 2 good takes of each part to help thicken the instruments and create a little more body especially for Trombones.

Good luck, cant wait to hear how everything turns out!