Recording A String Quartet

[pkautzsch]

In the Remote Possibilites we have quite some string quartet threads, I think.
I prefer to just put up a nice main pair. The best recording I did was with KM83s quite a bit back in a good-sounding room, but I've also successfully used other SDCs like KM183, KM184, Schoeps CMC54 - the cardioids usually in some ORTF-ish setup. Usually my mics are at least 6 ft high and a few feet back. If you can't find a GREAT spot for the main pair, make the Vl's and Va sound good and give the cello a spot. They usually will balance themselves, so you don't need to worry about isolation or close-miking. The recent violin thread with the sample shows nicely what happens when you're too close.
Oh, and you won't need your compressors and tubes. You'll need the cleanest pre you have.
But be sure to have a good-sounding room. A strange geometry often sounds good, though 12x14 seems a little small for that kind of music. Rather use cardioids in there.
If a moderator moves this thread to Remote, others will chime in suggesting Royer SF12 in Blumlein, I suspect. Never tried Blumlein so I won't comment.

[Jules]

The Tips & Techniques area is not an information request area
tutt
Its not a place to ask questions!
tutt
its a place to post solid Tips & Techniques.



I have moved this thread to the best forum to get help on this question...

[soupking]

Originally Posted by Jules

The Tips & Techniques area is not an information request area
tutt
Its not a place to ask questions!
tutt
its a place to post solid Tips & Techniques.



I have moved this thread to the best forum to get help on this question...

Right, but the only way to get answers is to ask questions, and THEN take those answers to the T&T area. That was my idea.

Nobody was responding anyway. Thanks for the move Jules, hopefully that will help the thread.

[soupking]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

In the Remote Possibilites we have quite some string quartet threads, I think.
I prefer to just put up a nice main pair. The best recording I did was with KM83s quite a bit back in a good-sounding room, but I've also successfully used other SDCs like KM183, KM184, Schoeps CMC54 - the cardioids usually in some ORTF-ish setup. Usually my mics are at least 6 ft high and a few feet back. If you can't find a GREAT spot for the main pair, make the Vl's and Va sound good and give the cello a spot. They usually will balance themselves, so you don't need to worry about isolation or close-miking. The recent violin thread with the sample shows nicely what happens when you're too close.
Oh, and you won't need your compressors and tubes. You'll need the cleanest pre you have.
But be sure to have a good-sounding room. A strange geometry often sounds good, though 12x14 seems a little small for that kind of music. Rather use cardioids in there.
If a moderator moves this thread to Remote, others will chime in suggesting Royer SF12 in Blumlein, I suspect. Never tried Blumlein so I won't comment.

Cool, glad to know. This definitely gives me some perspective. The room is a bit small. I'm guessing my main issue will be positioning. I'll try to attack them as a whole like suggested, then next pairing off the violins and then work my way down to cello.

I thought I might use the compressor on the room mic to see if that helps pack them together at any length. However, like half my half-brained regurgitated ideas I get from GS or other places it'll probably og by the waist-side. But...You never know unless you try.

Thanks pkautzsch!

[Jules]

You might have to leave your rock n roll compression at the door in this saloon..

[Jules]

Originally Posted by soupking

Right, but the only way to get answers is to ask questions, and THEN take those answers to the T&T area. That was my idea.

Nobody was responding anyway. Thanks for the move Jules, hopefully that will help the thread.

OK to make it clearer - that section is for solid tips, from people that are sure they work and have road tested them themselves - not tips just picked up.

[soupking]

Originally Posted by Jules

You might have to leave your rock n roll compression at the door in this saloon..

Heh, okay.

I'll probably try it though, at least on the drum room mic if there is one just to see what it sounds like.

After a year of playing around and finally recording a band in January, I still haven't used compression yet, so I guess I'm a bit trigger hungry.

[soupking]

Originally Posted by Jules

OK to make it clearer - that section is for solid tips, from people that are sure they work and have road tested them themselves - not tips just picked up.

Cool, right. Sounds good to me. I won't be leaving any tips, believe me. At least this year.

[Plush]

Since youse is ready, git ready to press, "GO."

Use them thar 300's in an ORTF pair.
Hilite the cello with a suitable mic--recommend a ribbon mic.
Mix to taste.

You don't need no room mics or compression wit dis set-up.

That's it.

Youse job is to keep it simple.

[mohthom]

In addition to Plush's suggestion, I'd be tempted to go for an M-S pair, using the Soundelux and one of your many ribbons (I'm not familiar with any of the models listed, and the Soundelux is the only cardioid listed).

It couldn't hurt to put in the Fatheads as wides (or maybe as a Faulkner array) - I guess the way I'd look at it is if you don't know how to acheive the sounds you want, get a good main pair (the ORTFs), and put up other mics with the chance that they may be useful later on. Tape is cheap!

MohThoM

[soupking]

From the responses it sounds like anything room is out of the question.

The mic layout of attack sounds like I might do this:

violins: M300 pencil mics in ortf pattern
viola: fathead and bk-5 in a v pattern of sorts
cello: bk-5

And then have the Soundelux e47c in full frontal and place the RCA 74b junior in an overhanging position.

Then run the violin and viola mics through the tube mixer using Quad Eight preamps. This would leave me with 5 channels of strings which I can either mix down and bounce or dump into ProTools.

I'll probably end up scrapping half of this set-up, but that's about as thorough I think I could be without being ridiculous.

[Larry Elliott]

Originally Posted by Plush

Since youse is ready, git ready to press, "GO."

Youse job is to keep it simple.

Undoubtedly the best advice on this topic

[David Rick]

Originally Posted by soupking

From the responses it sounds like anything room is out of the question.

The mic layout of attack sounds like I might do this:

violins: M300 pencil mics in ortf pattern
viola: fathead and bk-5 in a v pattern of sorts
cello: bk-5

And then have the Soundelux e47c in full frontal and place the RCA 74b junior in an overhanging position.

Then run the violin and viola mics through the tube mixer using Quad Eight preamps. This would leave me with 5 channels of strings which I can either mix down and bounce or dump into ProTools.

I'll probably end up scrapping half of this set-up, but that's about as thorough I think I could be without being ridiculous.

Not to put too fine a point on it, it's still effin' ridiculous. The trouble with putting up this many mediocre mics is that you'll never have time or attention to put any of 'em in a good place. Go read Plush's suggestion again. Spend most of your time getting that M300 pair into a spot that sounds absolutely lovely. Try not to need the cello spot, but put it up anyway and quickly decide whether the tone you get from your ribbon is going to be helpful later, or not. If not, swap it for the U47 clone. But concentrate on those M300's man -- do it right and you won't have anything to mix.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording

[Jules]

Let us know how 'youse' got on!

[soupking]

Originally Posted by David Rick

Not to put too fine a point on it, it's still effin' ridiculous. The trouble with putting up this many mediocre mics is that you'll never have time or attention to put any of 'em in a good place. Go read Plush's suggestion again. Spend most of your time getting that M300 pair into a spot that sounds absolutely lovely. Try not to need the cello spot, but put it up anyway and quickly decide whether the tone you get from your ribbon is going to be helpful later, or not. If not, swap it for the U47 clone. But concentrate on those M300's man -- do it right and you won't have anything to mix.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording

Cool, sounds good. I'll try an additive approach rather than a subtractive approach.

I guess I'm just excited about the idea of recording a quartet that I want to catch every damn frequency the room has to offer. Or at least I think that's what I want, but since my room's not that flattering, it's probably far from the truth.

That and I don't have ProTools, so I want to have more response to try and thicken the sound. Or at least have them for tweaking later on.

When we miked a violin we used the e47c, the bk-5 and and m300. However, the one that really stood out the most in the tube mixer was the m30 pencil so I can see why this mic is that most voted for.

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by soupking

From the responses it sounds like anything room is out of the question.

The mic layout of attack sounds like I might do this:

violins: M300 pencil mics in ortf pattern
viola: fathead and bk-5 in a v pattern of sorts
cello: bk-5

And then have the Soundelux e47c in full frontal and place the RCA 74b junior in an overhanging position.

Then run the violin and viola mics through the tube mixer using Quad Eight preamps. This would leave me with 5 channels of strings which I can either mix down and bounce or dump into ProTools.

.......

NO NO NO NO NO!

Listen to Plush.

USE ONLY THREE MICS!!

mic -> preamp -> recording device

NOTHING MORE!!!!




for real. no joke.

Plush knows what he is doing!

thumbsup

[d_fu]

When folks ask questions here like "How do I record XY?" (XY representing acoustic instruments or phenomena they are essentially unfamiliar with), the most important aspect is usually not mentioned - what are they recording XY for...?

In this particular case, are you trying to produce a solo recording of a string quartet playing classical repertoire for a CD release (or even demo purposes)? If so, get a better room to record in, get better mics (the M300 s*c*s on strings big time IMHO), and do it right...

Or are you recording them to add some kind of "exotic" flavour to a pop/rock music recording? If that is the case, I'd say feel free to record them individually and close-up (using whichever mic sounds best), add reverb as applicable, etc. In other words, treat them like you would treat an acoustic guitar recorded for the same purpose.

Is it for a commercial? Close-mic and liberally add tons of reverb...

Without knowing further details, I'd agree Plush is spot on. No need to go any further unless this is supposed to be the ultimate final recording of the Alban Berg Quartet before they end their 40-year career...

Daniel

[soupking]

Originally Posted by d_fu

When folks ask questions here like "How do I record XY?" (XY representing acoustic instruments or phenomena they are essentially unfamiliar with), the most important aspect is usually not mentioned - what are they recording XY for...?

In this particular case, are you trying to produce a solo recording of a string quartet playing classical repertoire for a CD release (or even demo purposes)? If so, get a better room to record in, get better mics (the M300 s*c*s on strings big time IMHO), and do it right...

Or are you recording them to add some kind of "exotic" flavour to a pop/rock music recording? If that is the case, I'd say feel free to record them individually and close-up (using whichever mic sounds best), add reverb as applicable, etc. In other words, treat them like you would treat an acoustic guitar recorded for the same purpose.

Is it for a commercial? Close-mic and liberally add tons of reverb...

Without knowing further details, I'd agree Plush is spot on. No need to go any further unless this is supposed to be the ultimate final recording of the Alban Berg Quartet before they end their 40-year career...

Daniel

In full, they aren't to be the lead, but help create depth for piano, bass, and drums. At times, I will be looking to add horns as well. I wouldn't say exotic flavor. They're being used more as an emotional thickening agent. In all, they will be by no means solo except in initial testing.

If a different room is needed, then so be it.
However, we've gotten good results with a solo violin in the room thus far. So we might as well try as long as it's free. Well, almost free.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by soupking

In full, they aren't to be the lead, but help create depth for piano, bass, and drums. At times, I will be looking to add horns as well. I wouldn't say exotic flavor. They're being used more as an emotional thickening agent..

Ok, so not classical... In that case, I'd say feel free to experiment. Find out what kind of sound the composer or band are looking for and see if you can create that with what you've got. You may learn more than with the purist approach.

Whose music is this? What's going to be the end result? How important is it to get a perfect result, how much time can you spend on this? All these apects count... If you have an hour to get a few good sounding tracks out of them, back to purist. If they've got time, try out things.

Daniel

[soupking]

Originally Posted by d_fu

Ok, so not classical... In that case, I'd say feel free to experiment. Find out what kind of sound the composer or band are looking for and see if you can create that with what you've got. You may learn more than with the purist approach.

Whose music is this? What's going to be the end result? How important is it to get a perfect result, how much time can you spend on this? All these apects count... If you have an hour to get a few good sounding tracks out of them, back to purist. If they've got time, try out things.

Daniel

I'm the composer and pianist. I'm using my suped up rehearsal studio as a recording station. I've been building it for about a year and a half and now things are starting to roll. We just recorded a band in Dec/Jan to break the place in and to our pleasant surprise, drums sound just fine. That was the major concern because if the drums sound like ass in the room, it's going to be rough seas ahead. Now it's about compositions and hiring string players to come in and play Simon Says since I'm not a big fan of notation.

In short, my friends and I are the mics, the board, and the artists. However, we try not to play/produce at the same time because that's ludicrous. It all requires a large deal of pre-production in any capacity.

We can spend a good deal of time, but when you have to rehearse, schedule, finance, arrange, and record things, every second counts.

[con_ritmo]

Originally Posted by soupking

it's going to be rough seas ahead. Now it's about compositions and hiring string players to come in and play Simon Says since I'm not a big fan of notation.

if you want to save $$$ and headaches in the long run...for string players...let alone small string ensembles... start notating.
if you're not comfortable with that, get comfortable. and if you are, then at least jot down some basic melodic lines and voicings that can be deviated from...

[newyorker42]

Originally Posted by soupking

Now it's about compositions and hiring string players to come in and play Simon Says since I'm not a big fan of notation.

Most string players (especially seasoned LA session musicians) will expect to get a nicely notated chart on a gig, unless you are going for that rock or bluegrass type of vibe.

If in the "classical" vein, if you get folks with great ears and improv ability, you might get lucky and hit the jackpot with folks who will take your oral instructions and run with them.

But if you have your own ideas and can represent them in some way (piano demo? midi mockup?), why not hire someone to come in beforehand and notate them and make sure the orchestration is good/possible on the instruments, the dynamics and effects are notated properly, etc?

If every second counts, you owe it to yourself to spend this money in advance. If you are talking about minutes as opposed to hours of music, it won't even cost that much.

John

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by soupking

........ hiring string players to come in and play Simon Says since I'm not a big fan of notation.......

yeah. good luck with that

[mohthom]

There's a reason many universities count notation as a large proportion of the mark for composition . . . when I did my UG, it was 30%! Unreadable music may as well not exist. Notation is the vehicle used by the composer to get music from his head to the performer . . . if you rely on communicating this 'live' then there's no telling how much detail you'll lose.

Just for a sense of scale, a good friend of mine just spent nearly two months digitising (transferring from paper notation to sibelius) a 20min piano concerto - simply because there was so much detail it was the most efficient way to communicate everything to performers. Take heed of eight centuries of notated sound, and when making scoring decisions rely on theory and planned orchestration rather than serendipity! When you've no written record of how your scoring works, this is more likely to be the case.

MohThoM

[soupking]

Originally Posted by mohthom

There's a reason many universities count notation as a large proportion of the mark for composition . . . when I did my UG, it was 30%! Unreadable music may as well not exist. Notation is the vehicle used by the composer to get music from his head to the performer . . . if you rely on communicating this 'live' then there's no telling how much detail you'll lose.

Just for a sense of scale, a good friend of mine just spent nearly two months digitising (transferring from paper notation to sibelius) a 20min piano concerto - simply because there was so much detail it was the most efficient way to communicate everything to performers. Take heed of eight centuries of notated sound, and when making scoring decisions rely on theory and planned orchestration rather than serendipity! When you've no written record of how your scoring works, this is more likely to be the case.

MohThoM

Oh yeah, totally. Serendipity is a fancy word for lazy.

I need to have some kind of plan of communication if it's not written down. I might actually play/record the parts out separately on a keyboard for the each player to listen to and play back. Then work on dynamics verbally once in the studio.

Thanks for taking time to heed warning guys. I appreciate it.

I'm still wondering on how I will position my players.

[krs]

I might actually play/record the parts out separately on a keyboard for the each player to listen to and play back. Then work on dynamics verbally once in the studio.

This is a plan for a lot of wasted time and frustrated players...they will be out their element and doubting everything, including themselves (and you!).

Drop me an email if you need any advice thumbsup

[soupking]

Originally Posted by krs

Drop me an email if you need any help thumbsup

Rockin. Thanks Kirk!

[mohthom]

What's wrong with having them sat the same way the majority of composers did for the last 400 years? Anything else feels unnatural to an even vaguely educated listener.


Vln1 - Vln2 - Vla - VC in a semicircle (from the audience perspective)

MohThoM

[soupking]

Originally Posted by mohthom

What's wrong with having them sat the same way the majority of composers did for the last 400 years? Anything else feels unnatural to an even vaguely educated listener.


Vln1 - Vln2 - Vla - VC in a semicircle (from the audience perspective)

MohThoM

Sounds good to me. Thanks MohThoM!