And FWIW, a small portion of last night's show was just put on Instant Encore... MP3 files, unfortunately, but this is the only way I can show anything about the rig used. Only part I didn't tell about in the last post was conversion- I used Lavry Blue converters for this:
Thank you for this Super recording. The playas deserve an "all hail" and congratulations.
But how could this sound be due to a preamplifier? That is the question.
Of course the musicians and the hall are first rate. All things being equal, though, the pres made a massive difference in sound. As I said in my first post, I've done hundreds of recordings in this room. A large number with the same mics hung from the same points. We have control of height and distance from stage. The difference in sound was one of transparency and sound stage. Both me and the other engineer who was working with me (who has also done hundreds of recordings in this room) had the same reaction. It was like hearing the hall for the first time- the mics were completely different sounding.
The best part was not just the realism in the sound. The best part was that unlike so many transparent pres, the sound was not clinical at all. The musicality of the presentation didn't suffer at all.
The mic setup was schoeps mk 21 in an ortf- like setup and dpa omni outriggers. mains were about 10 feet up and out. I'll use them on a large ensemble tomorrow. I have a new music show with music by Ligeti and Eotvos. Includes 2 large ensemble works including the Ligeti Piano Concerto and 3 smaller works. The room is big and reverberant. A church. Should be interesting.
I am sitting here listening to your samples with headphones on and the effect is startling.
Was there any post processing? I ask because the depth and realism is phenomenal without any perceptible noise floor or out-of-place frequencies from the equipment. This is really one of the most realistic and '3-D' captures I have ever heard. You are right...the 'reach' into the stage is gorgeous.
Please post samples of the new show as you are able.
Would also really appreciate if you have any previous recordings done in the same hall but without the Pueblo Audio preamps. Just for comparison.
Thanks for posting this!
__________________
"Is it my imagination, or is the cutlery particularly defening this evening?"
I am sitting here listening to your samples with headphones on and the effect is startling.
Was there any post processing? I ask because the depth and realism is phenomenal without any perceptible noise floor or out-of-place frequencies from the equipment. This is really one of the most realistic and '3-D' captures I have ever heard. You are right...the 'reach' into the stage is gorgeous.
Please post samples of the new show as you are able.
Would also really appreciate if you have any previous recordings done in the same hall but without the Pueblo Audio preamps. Just for comparison.
Thanks for posting this!
There was a small amount of post processing in this sample. There was a small (2dB) notch of EQ using a Flux EQ at about 1.9KHz and a very small amount of reverb from a Lexicon 300. The reverb returns were more than 25dB down in the mix, though. Just enough for a feel, but not enough to tell that it was on. Probably 95% of what you hear is the natural sound of the hall.
To compare- the only thing I can easily offer up is a youtube link. This is a recent show- same hall, same mics. Different show, different position. Pres/converters are the house Yamaha AD8HR setup going through Ethersound to the console and Pro Tools rig. It's a good sounding rig, but not in this league. Probably a bit more post processing here, but hopefully you can get the point. Camerata Pacifica — Caplet, Conte fantastique - YouTube
It is going to be hard to post samples of just the concert footage. Unfortunately, these are all pretty high-end groups I'm working with here and they won't allow release of *any* material without their approval. There are also rights issues with the music and union issues with some of the groups. In short, I just can't mess with it.
I used the pres again tonight on a large setup for a new music show. The situation was completely different, but again I was equally impressed. When a couple colleagues put on the headphones while I was recording, they were also very impressed with what they were picking up. The other thing that struck me tonight (now that I've had a little time with them) is how unbelievably quiet they are. You hear sound- music. Not electroncis. No hiss, nothing. Combine with a good mic and they really shine.
I am listening to Conte fantastique now. Again, excellent players and hall and another fine capture.....but I hear the difference. For instance (as you mentioned) there is more of an audible noise floor (vs the black silence / real room sound of the Pueblo during the Mozart), and more of a smearing of frequencies when there are complex harmonics going on. Granted there are a lot more moving pieces in this performance, but I still feel it when there are only two parts playing.
One of the nice things I enjoyed about the Mozart / Pueblo recording was the sense of frequency separation and space in the recording. It was very 3d even with just the two players. I'm not just talking about room and reverb here...there was no 'congestion' to the recording itself (of course the Lavry converters helped as well).
I really appreciate you taking the time to describe your setup and processing...and for making us aware of / letting us hear the Pueblo Audio pre in action. I was in the process of deciding between a Millennia or Forssell preamp for stereo captures, but the Pueblo Audio is now moved to the top of my list.
I would just love to hear the Pueblo in a hall like yours using just a Mid-Side configuration for a small Jazz combo. I think it would be sublime.
I like my Aphex 188 very much.
Here you can listen to a recent recording i made with it.
Main pair: DPA 4006TL AB 57cm
Violin spots: Schoeps CMC5/MK2 AB 30cm
WRT Horus,
It's still a work in progress but sounds pretty amazing. The Mic preamps are virtually invisible and has headroom for days. I've done about a half a dozen recordings with it now and am pretty impressed.
Currently it only does PCM rates up to 192 but they promise us DSD 64/128 and 256 buy the end of the year. We'll see.
We have ours loaded 32 in with 8 out and dual MADI IO. I must admit that I haven't played with Ravenna other than to do some testing as PMX v8 is not quite ready for primetime.
Coming shortly is an option for direct analog out of the mic preamp.
The first thing I recorded with it was a Kid Rock TV show at HOB and I've been using it to feed the backup recorder on a bunch of orchestral projects.
It really will be a game changer once all the features are sorted out.
All the best,
-mark
Hi Mark,
Thanks for the info. I'm typing this while recording a Bach and Schoenberg piano recital using a Horus. My colleague is using MADI into a laptop running PMX and I'm running CAT 5 into my laptop (Revenna carrier) and recording into SADiE 6 native at 64 bit. It sounds good! And it has been stable.
Information:
The Instrument in this recording is a strad, own by a collector. He wanted to have a recording of his instrument and borrowed it to a young talented player to practise and later to record him. Recording took place at the volkshaus studio basel, which is not as huge as a classical concert hall, but still quite large.
Main Mics to choose were DPA4006 AB and Original KM53 (with Alucapsule). The KM53 were choosen (if of any interesst I can provide the same piece with the DPA's). If I remember correctly there were room mics (Neumann 691 with either M69 or M58 Capsule, but not used at a hot level). As Benjamin I would have liked to EQ a little bit to get some remaining sharpness out, but as the goal was to present the sound of the instrument we have decided not to EQ. There is a tiny bit of reverb (either a Lex 960 or Ircam Verb, don't remember.
Preamplifier and AD:
I brought many preamps as well as the EMM AD, that I love. I was almost sure that we would use a decent tube preamp, because with my Lorenz or V76 there is often a holistic sound that I did not get with Solid-State Tecnology. There was also a GML. However the sound of the Horus Pre and Horus AD was always more liked by me, the owner and the musician. It seemed to trasnport the sound and size of the violin with the KM53 really well. (If of any interesst I could see if I still have the soundcheck files with the other Pres and EMM).
The Recording is not yet finished both in Editing and Mix.
Here is a photo of the session:
(the two U47 were not used)
Information:
The Instrument in this recording is a strad, own by a collector. He wanted to have a recording of his instrument and borrowed it to a young talented player to practise and later to record him. Recording took place at the volkshaus studio basel, which is not as huge as a classical concert hall, but still quite large.
Main Mics to choose were DPA4006 AB and Original KM53 (with Alucapsule). The KM53 were choosen (if of any interesst I can provide the same piece with the DPA's).
Thanks for the upload, a little sharp as you said but fine and possibly close the way the instrument sounded. Was the KM53 in AB like the DPA, around 1m, as in the picture? Did you try narrower A-B distances too.
[I would love to hear the DPA samples, was that with silver-grids, could look like the black ones in the picture - what a studio ;->]
Mads,
Yes, the DPA and KM53 were almost at the same place. I tried a more narrow AB but the room sounded to close then. So I ended up with the relative large AB. The DPA Samples I will organize. I think it was the black grid. The Silver Grids could have been the better option soundwise in order to get a less sharp sound, on the other way with the black grids the room representation is much better.
It's possible that I will equalize the record a little bit to get rich of that little sharpness that remained.
Regards
Daniel
Quote:
Originally Posted by mljung
Thanks for the upload, a little sharp as you said but fine and possibly close the way the instrument sounded. Was the KM53 in AB like the DPA, around 1m, as in the picture? Did you try narrower A-B distances too.
[I would love to hear the DPA samples, was that with silver-grids, could look like the black ones in the picture - what a studio ;->]
Superb sound from the violinist, violin, mics and Horus right there. Many thanks for posting.
Those studio lights look like mockups of CCM's.
Lol
I liked that the horus was able to present the sound and dimension, dynamics and color exactly as it was. It was a sort of realism that I did not hear with other transparent preamps before (which was then the reason that I used tube pres).
ALL: As the record is not yet out I wonder who would leave the sound as is (in order to really preserve the sound of the violin or who would take some sharpness out. I am not yet sure what I will do.
ALL: As the record is not yet out I wonder who would leave the sound as is (in order to really preserve the sound of the violin or who would take some sharpness out. I am not yet sure what I will do.
Daniel, as people don't hear violins from that angle and because it exaggerates the sharpness, I'd reduce the sharpness a little so it's more like intimate listening in the front row. For your purposes all that's needed is an honest, revealing close-up - not a medical exam.
I always wonder why there is a habit to put the mics high ABOVE the violinist and not BEFORE him ... As the one who tries to record his violin and viola for years, I always find that the mics placed before the violinist (in the level of his head in some distance) sound always much better and more natural in the result than if placed above him ... (that often sounds a bit more harsh and sharp in comparison)
I always wonder why there is a habit to put the mics high ABOVE the violinist and not BEFORE him ... As the one who tries to record his violin and viola for years, I always find that the mics placed before the violinist (in the level of his head in some distance) sound always much better and more natural in the result than if placed above him ... (that often sounds a bit more harsh and sharp in comparison)
Ivo, I always feel that when the mics are placed before the violin as you suggest, the problem just goes a little deeper frequency wise, resulting in a notch often around 1k which I would not like. Also in that Studio the room sounds better at higher distances.
I will try next time the lower position again and see how it sounds. You are right, it has become kind of a habit to have them higher, and I have not anymore tried a lower position for years.
Quote:
michael wrote: Daniel, as people don't hear violins from that angle and because it exaggerates the sharpness, I'd reduce the sharpness a little so it's more like intimate listening in the front row. For your purposes all that's needed is an honest, revealing close-up - not a medical exam.
Michael: The reason that people would not hear a violin from that angle would not so much be the argument for me to reduce anything, as nobody listening a CD would know how the instrument sounded anyway. And at a concert it would be heard different to whatever micposition would be choosed and with a lot more distance. But you are right, it should not be a medical exam. I will see, thanks for your input!
Regards
Daniel
Last edited by idee und klang; 20th February 2013 at 07:56 PM..
Reason: spelling
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Atelier HudSonic, Chicago
