Sharing a Balance? - Tonmeisters Input Please

[mosrite]

Right Folks,

Just landed a nice job. Great venue, great musicians.

We are talking a piano/violin duo followed by a piano trio (cello).

I am using a pair of mics, no more. Partly as it's a live performance and I only want one stand for the audience to contend with and partly because I don't think more than a stereo pair should be required in this context.

What is your opinion on the idea that these 2 groups could share the same mic position /balance? (taking into account that the piano won't be moved and the hall sounds great).

Appreciated,

[d_fu]

Not considering the fact that i would probably use spot mics and with no further details about the hall and setup, I'd say this should work in principle, if the position is right. But if not, maybe you'd have a moment to change the position between the sets?


Daniel

[mohthom]

I've rarely seen a hall where a pair of wide omnis couldn't be hidden without too much effort. Is this safety measure really pointless? If you're able to multitrack, the worst case scenario is that you simply don't use the wides. If you're not able to multitrack, they'll at least add a bit of life to a position that otherwise may lend itself to close and non-reverberant sound.

FWIW, I wouldn't spot (in a million years) on such a small concert - it seems that inconspicuity is important and any group worth their salt can balance between themselves. Also, as Plush said recently (if you're reading this, I LOVE the way you put it), be bold and mix it like a man!

You say the hall is great. Why not use it?

MohThoM

[mosrite]

maybe you'd have a moment to change the position between the sets?

Not possible unfortunately.

where a pair of wide omnis

No wide omnis in this house chief, little AB is as far as Im willing to go

[mohthom]

Then I don't understand what the original post was about

You ask for an opinion on whether a stereo pair would be enough, and I let you know why I didn't think it would and what I would do to rectify it from what you had told me. Maybe I'm missing something? I may be misunderstanding, but you say that's as far as you're willing to go - does that mean you actually have the gear waiting to complete the setup anyway?

For classical music I'd agree, changing mic position mid-concert breaks the flow of the record - and if there's an audience it looks horribly unproffessional.

So . . . I guess my question is . . . what was your question?

MohThoM

[pkautzsch]

Great hall + Great trio + Time to fine-tune mic position = just main pair, preferrably spaced omnis.
Else I'd maybe give the cello a spot on a baby stand.

The violinist won't change his position too much between duo and trio, will he. It's the same concert, so it's perfectly right if both pieces sound the same.

[Douglas Whates]

Do you mind if I ask who/where you're recording? Might be nice to come along...
PM me if you're unable to divulge publicly!

[Testing123]

Originally Posted by mohthom

For classical music I'd agree, changing mic position mid-concert breaks the flow of the record - and if there's an audience it looks horribly unproffessional.

So you mean the guys I saw record a classical recital where they crawled (literally) around on the stage between EVERY piece rearranging mics didn't look professional?

You don't have to answer that question.

Did I mention that they were wearing ripped jeans and t-shirts?

Sorry, back to the OP's question...

[mohthom]

Crawling round on the floor isn't the only way to do it . . . ever wondered how much damage you can do with a cathedral stand laden with a heavy stereo pair?

Also, I just had a quick re-read of earlier posts, and you say you're only going to do an A-B array. Unless these are wide omnis, how are you going to get any depth? Are you going to use a Faulker Array, or do you mean X-Y, or do you intend to do something else?

MohThoM

[mosrite]

The violinist won't change his position too much between duo and trio, will he. It's the same concert, so it's perfectly right if both pieces sound the same.

At least you understood my original question thanks Unfortunately the violinist is not the same in both groups but the piano is static. I'm sure it will be fine

[GKennedy]

You should be prepared for the trio to be sitting and the violinist to be standing for the duo - so have some height adjustment up your sleeve if you can.

Which hall are you recording in?

GK

[mohthom]

I perfectly understood your original question. The problem is that you asked it with a particular answer in mind.

You haven't clarified whether you indeed meant to state that you were using an A-B array (Time Difference stereo, or spaced omnis) as per your earlier post, or an X-Y ('stereo' coincident) pair, as you implied.

You asked for an opinion, and it was given (and it was agreed by another poster) - yet that didn't seem to please you. The reason I didn't understand your question is that your terminology is flawed;

No wide omnis in this house chief, little AB is as far as Im willing to go

And . . . I'm out. It's no good asking a question with an answer in mind, and shooting down (and mocking) the perfectly reasonable and justified answers you are offered. I'll have no further part in it.

MohThoM

[mosrite]

You should be prepared for the trio to be sitting and the violinist to be standing for the duo - so have some height adjustment up your sleeve if you can.

That's true, thankyou. Hopefully I will be able to meddle with the array but have to assume it's fixed in which case a position that works well enough for both might well be acceptable.

I perfectly understood your original question.

You evidently did not whereas others evidently did, that's not my fault chief.

The reason I didn't understand your question is that your terminology is flawed;

It's not my fault that you've never heard of 'Little AB' (omnis generally spaced approx 40cm apart).

Unless these are wide omnis, how are you going to get any depth?

What do you mean by depth? surely you mean width? Or more specifially an unnatural width of the soundstage resulting in both phasing issues and a big damn hole in the middle.

shooting down (and mocking)

Now, now don't be so sensitive my friend. I don't believe that there was any mocking involved at all.

I'll have no further part in it.

Are the rest of us still allowed to play?

[mohthom]

Well, that's fine - Google doesn't seem to know 'little AB' either.

Now, now don't be so sensitive my friend. I don't believe that there was any mocking involved at all.

At least you understood my original question thanks

MohThoM

[d_fu]

Now, now... tutt
Anyhow, I'd call it "small AB"... Yields more Google hits, too...

But what is a "wide omni"?

[pkautzsch]

Seems like someone understood the term "stereo pair" as "XY stereo pair". That's not the OP's fault.
For any non-posting newbies: Stereo pairs can be anything from XY to widely spaced omnis. A good source of information about the principles of stereo pairs is Williams' The Stereophonic Zoom on the Rycote website. I'm not sure it says "small AB" or anything similar, but in fact 40 cm are a good point to start with for ensembles like a piano trio.

[locosoundman]

Not to add fuel to this fire, but I thought mohthom was suggesting that the OP should add a pair of widely spaced omni's as ambient mic's in addition to the main stereo array.

This way you would have the option of adding some, er, ambience.

I apologise to mohthom in advance if I have misread this post

For me, I have no trouble with adjusting my mic position if the stagehands are already out there shifting music stands, chairs, and piano's about. We are not talking about moving a Decca Tree here - it's generally a pair of mic's on a T-Bar on a lightweight tall stand. Heck, I'd rather be out there with them making sure they don't knock into my stand (unless it's a union house).

IF I am going to move the mic's, I will generally spike my positions with tape beforehand so that I don't have to wander around the stage willy-nilly. It is one deliberate movement and then off stage I go. I always wear good stage blacks to any gig so I don't look like some homeless guy on stage.

If the mic's are hung, then you simply have to live with the position you chose beforehand, but have a spot ready for piano and/or cello if necessary.

[thenewyear]

Welcome to Little AB's website



Lots of good advice in this thread. Particularly the spot on the cello and having two pairs up in order to pick and choose. Both of these ideas will give tonal and balance options later on but equally a good recording is fully possible without them.

I also prefer in a live concert situation to hang mics for both aesthetic and public liability reasons.

[mosrite]

Welcome to Little AB's website

Depending on my mood I sometimes also refer to it as 'petite AB' or indeed, on home turf, 'wee AB'

I also prefer in a live concert situation to hang mics for both aesthetic and public liability reasons.

I hear you but a stand array will give me more tonal options and, im hoping, a single stand won't be too distracting. A small stand in the middle of the stage should, in theory, not be a big aesthetic issue.

For me, I have no trouble with adjusting my mic position if the stagehands are already out there shifting music stands, chairs, and piano's about.

Absolutely. I'm hoping that the addition of myself on stage will be acceptable.

F I am going to move the mic's, I will generally spike my positions with tape beforehand so that I don't have to wander around the stage willy-nilly.

For sure. A good tip for non-residue tape I can give if film production tape. Expensive but no residue and re-stickaeble for when you've taped things down only to discover that yes you did prefer the previous balance after all