Full orchestra recording - need lots of general + rental equipment advice!

[Manozi]

Hey all,

I apologize in advance - this is a somewhat lenghty post

Here's the deal:

I am going to be recording a series of concerts in South America this summer for the Youth Orchestra of the Americas. It is a full orchestra, and the halls are pretty...he he...grand?

One hall I'll be recording in is the Teatro Municipal in Rio de Janeiro:

http://www.ctac.gov.br/tdb/fotos/fotos/FOTO_0129.JPG

And another - the Teatro Solis in Montevideo:

http://www.michoacan-travel.com/fipr...morelos301.jpg

The problem here is that I am presented with a very minimal budget for renting equipment. I don't have anything myself, since I am in the process of building my personal studio and getting equipment. What they can get me is $1000. This is for EVERYTHING.

So, I decided to invest some money and buy some equipment (it was time to do that and I have some $ saved up anyway) rather than go through the long (and surely painful) process of trying to conjure up a decent recording setup - mics and all - out of a $1000 budget. Not to mention, I suspect that rental companies will cringe at the notion of me dragging their equipment out of the country for 3+ weeks.

I have a budget of around $7000-$8000 and am planning to purchase the following:

- 8 ch. FireWire recording interface - currently looking at the Focusrite Saffire

- Laptop (I decided it was time to get a dedicated audio laptop and am currently looking at a MacBook Pro...any other suggestions?)

- Tracking software - I need a new DAW - have been using ProTools LE up until now, but I cannot use it in this case - need more than 2 inputs, and I just have an MBox. Was thinking about renting a Digi002 for a while and going with that, but I can't afford it (budget) and I can't find a place that actually rents one! I'm thinking of going with Cubase or Logic - have heard mixed reactions on both in a live tracking situation but...I'll have to buy something.

-MICS, MICS, MICS! - I don't have anything of mine - and renting high-quality mics suitable for live orchestra rec. (KM184s for ex.) would not be possible at all w/ this budget (also fear that rental comps. will be reluctant, again, since they'll be going out of the country).

I am planning on buying mics as well. I want at least 4 (was planning on recording 8-16 channels at first - but where'll I get the mics?...so that went out the window...).

I can't afford much. Looks like I have a $1500-2000 budget for the mics only... Was looking at the AKG 451s matched pair and Rode NT-5s. What I really want is a matched pair of KM184s, but I can't afford them.

- Flight rack - shockproof

- Various equipment - XLR cables, mic spacers etc.


So, now for the plea for help (well, some solid advice, at least section of the post :

1) Would it be OK going from mics directly to interface (Saffire) and into the laptop w/o a preamp? I am planning on getting a nice preamp (Audient ASP 008 maybe...) - but I'll save that for after this project is done - can utilize the cash better, and the preamps in the Saffire should do, methinks.

2) MICS! - This is my biggest dilemma...what mics to buy? I want to buy something quality that I could use for my future projects and rely on for a long time - not just buy a cheap setup so I can get thru this project. This is why I'm reluctant to go with the Rodes or even the AKG 451s. But I don't have the $ for Neumanns, Schoeps or DPAs. I am going with all SDCs, it seems. What to do?

3) What mic setup? How do I get a quality recording of a full orchestra, in these huge halls - with a small setup - 4 mics or so? I am going to be entirely on my own - a one man show - so I cannot possibly deal with setting up a lot of gear and moving that from venue to venue (we're doing concert after concert - every night - in different venues, and sometimes in different countries). What is the best mic placement? Looks like I have to use stands - there doesn't look to be an opportunity, time (and help - an assistant for example!) to do a cable/suspended mic setup. I was thinking an ORTF in the middle w/ maybe 2 flanks (total of 4 mics). Or 3 mics in front of the orchestra - one center, two flanks - extreme L + R - facing inward towards the center. For the three mic trick - would SDCs on tall stands work, or would large-capsule condensers be better? With both setups - would there be any phasing issues? REALLY need some advice here...

4) Flying the equipment over - how does it work with lugging a rack of equipment on airplanes? Is this special luggage, or checked in luggage? Is there extra charge? I've never done this before.

5) BACKUP! - I cannot do a 'decent' backup (i.e. - splitting the 'main' signals, or passing them thru ADAT to another setup) so I am going to do it the ghetto way, because I need to have something! I am planning on running a second laptop w/ my Mbox - and having a separate 2nd main pair going into that. So, I need different mics...which means 2 more mics to buy, rent, borrow...steal? Any comments, suggestions on a better backup system given the budget and other limitations are more than welcome!

6) How do I deal with the South America power issue? They use different power, and outlets in Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay etc. and I was wondering how the conversion would work. I am definitely no electrical engineer so I need some help here. What would be best - plugging everything into an 'American' power strip/power conditioner, and placing an adapter/plug converter at the end of that, or getting a separate voltage adapter/plug converter for each one of the units (laptops, interface etc.) and plugging those in separately? Need some advice here...


And in the end, I am planning to use the $1000 budget to rent the 'small' stuff I'll need - mic stands, perhaps XLR cables, etc.


So, overall, how does this scheme sound to the more seasoned classical recording people out there? Issues, comments, suggestions?

I really need some help on the microphone part of this post, and I will greatly appreciate any insight on that.

Looking forward to everyone's answers and thanks very much in advance!


Cheers,
Manol

[videoteque]

With your budget you can get 2 high-quality good channels (pre-a/d-mic-cables) or 8 medium quality ones. I would have no doubt to go with the high quality way...

Examples with US Prices

Macbook with 160Gb+2Gb: 1524$
Metric Halo ULN-2: 1200$
Stand, cables, DVD-R, CD-R 800$

SUB TOTAL 3500$

And you jave another 3500$ to choose between good stereo mics like:

Schoeps CMC62 ST Set: 3775$
AEA R88 Stereo Ribbon Microphone: 1710$
Royer SF-12: 2800$
Gefell M930 Set Cardiod XY: 3100$
Neumann KM184: 1700$

[hughesmr]

Originally Posted by videoteque

And you jave another 3500$ to choose between good stereo mics like:

Schoeps CMC62 ST Set: 3775$
AEA R88 Stereo Ribbon Microphone: 1710$
Royer SF-12: 2800$
Gefell M930 Set Cardiod XY: 3100$
Neumann KM184: 1700$

Or you could swap out the Schoeps for a pr of the new Sennheiser MKH8020s, which are getting raves ... and save about $1500 in the process.

[Thom]

Videoteque has gotten you on the proper path. I must ask, though what is the orchestra's objective? Archival? Retail sale? This can influence your purchase.

When I am recording I usually determine these factors. A multi-mic recording today is the studio way and stereo pair is the archival way. I personally like both and several on here will tell you that they get very good recordings both ways. In the case you describe, I would keep is stereo.

My suggestions are as follows:

Macbook Pro
Metric Halo ULN-2 (use the record panel to record, edit with something else. I am using SoundBlade (Sonic Solutions new software development)).
Backup recorder (Nagra, Sound Devices, Marantz, Korg)
Mic stands (13ft from Savage, Impact or Manfrotto, the first 2 are much cheaper and quite good. Other favor OnStage Light stands, also quite good and adjustable, just larger)
A great pair of mics (Geffell, DPA, Pearl, Neumann, Schoeps)
DAV BG1 (there is no substitue)
Mic cables (buy raw materials, a soldering iron and do work, cheaper and and you built them yourself. There is no one to blame if they fail.)

This will ballpark you at 7000 to 8000. As you get going you can add more. Good luck.

[Plush]

I recommend that you keep it really simple. This will be easier for you, cheaper on your pocketbook AND it will give you great sound.

Those halls look beautiful and don't be intimidated by the size. You will be working the perimeter of the stage with 4 mics, 4 Neumann MNV87 cable hangers, 4 cables, a Mackie mixer and a solid state or hard drive recorder. Buy a 5th mic and a 5th mnv 87 for soloist pick-ups.

My suggestion is not to use a multi-track interface and not to record on a computer. WHY? Because you should mix the program right on the spot to two track and call it a day. That's what heavy closers do and that's what you should do.

For your mics I recommend 4 Shure KSM 141 switchable omni/cardioid mics. 4 100ft. Canare star-quad or Mogami 2554 cable should do fine. A mackie 1220 Onyx should work and the recorder could be a KORG 1000 or a Tascam 1000 DVD recorder.

Backup would be onto a laptop.

Sound will be magnificent as the orchestra mixes itself into your 4 front mics. Don't screw yourself with too many choices and too many tracks or mics. Be bold and mix it like a man.

Then leave the hall and adjourn to a tavern to celebrate the incredible stereo picture!

[videoteque]

And when you come back home, post an MP3!!!

[mpdonahue]

I've actually recorded in most of the halls you are going to on this tour.
Given the time restrictions and also the infrastructure available in these halls, it is impractical to try to hang mics.
My suggestion would be very different than most of the replies thus far.

1) Get a Mackie 1640 mixer with the firewire option. Use the direct outs and a couple of 6' radioshack 25M to 25M Dsub cables to feed an Alesis or Tascam multi track HD recorder. Use the firewire outs to backup the 16 outs + the stereo mix to your existing laptop. The free Mackie Traction software will make 18 tracks of .wav files fine. This should cost you in the neighborhood of $2500.

2) Go out and get one of the cheap ProCo Chinese made 16 channel snakes. 100 or 150 fees should get you where you need to be to be out of the way. This should cost you $450

3) Buy or make 10x 10m, 5x 15m and 5x 5m microphone cables from Canare L4E6s star quad cable. 200m spool is $239+shipping. 40 Neutrik XLR's are about $1.50 ea. Total is $300 + an evening of soldering.

4) Buy 8 Pic 12B mic stands for $79. $650+shipping .
Buy a decent pair of headphones (Closed back work best for this kind of environment). $150.
At this point we're up to about $4k and have the basic kit in hand.
Power in Brazil is a mixture of Europlug and Multistandard sockets at 240v. You should invest in a stepdown isolation transformer. This will probably cost in the neighborhood of $500.

Now, Spend about $500-1k buying the right sized used roadcases on Ebay. Do not attempt to ship this stuff in SKB cases. Buy a couple of decent plywood cases with trays or drawers.
This leaves you about $2k for microphones. You could worse than to take Hudson's advice and buy a 4 Shure KSM-141's ($400 ea) and 4 SE Electronics SE1a for $150 ea. Total $2200.

Now, all you have to do is make a good recording and you're on your way.
Make sure the Orchestra is including your equipment on the Carnet and that it is also included on the tour's insurance.
-mark

[Manozi]

Hey all,

Thanks for all the replies!

Thom - the purpose of this recording is the creation of a CD that can be distributed to patrons of the YOA and the musicians as a 'memento' of sorts. In addition of course, the recordings will be used for archival purposes.

So it is not a studio-type recording which requires extensive miking. Hence my decision to go with a simpler setup.

videoteque - the Metric Halo stuff looks nice, and I've heard everyone raving about it. I'd love to get something like that. And you're right - it's a compromise between 8 mediocre channels or 2 good ones. I'll have to make a decision on that. Thanks for the suggestions!

Plush - thanks for giving me a different opinion on how to approach this! I never thought about that approach - I will definitely consider it!

mpdonahue - You've recorded there - great! Could you suggest a particular brand/model of flight cases? Also, where would you store mics/mic cases for a plane flight? Special case? Or do the drawer cases serve that function?

I also should consider the soldering approach - didn't think of that before.
Can you give me an example/link of where you got the $239 + shipping quote on the Canare cable spool?

I have the headphones already.

As for the stepdown isolation transformer - could you please elaborate? Really clueless when it comes to electrical. Also, what is a good place to buy (or maybe rent?) that from?

Thanks for telling me about the insurance - I will definitely talk to them about this!

Also, can you give me more info on the actual check-in of racks/equipment? Are they considered 'special' luggage, or do you just check them in and get them out on the conveyor with the rest of the luggage at the other end of your destination?


Thanks a lot for everyone's help!

-Manol

[bove]

It may not be as exciting of an option, but I'd definitely consider purchasing one of the high quality standalone stereo recorders, and a pair of really nice microphones and call it a day. Get your positioning right during the soundcheck, and you're good to go.

This will save you time, and solve many transportation issues. As you travel you can dump the files onto your laptop for post production.

One example of this setup would be a Sound Devices recorder and a pair of Schoeps, DPA, or Sennheiser microphones, nice cables, mic stand, etc.

And have the orchestra add the $1000 of unused rental budget right into your paycheck.

[Thom]

I do not mean to hijack the thread, but I do want to start mixing to 2 track again. There has been some mention of the Mackies I am very curious about this. How is the sound? I thought the old compact boards 1202, 1604 etc were not noisy for classical recording. Has this changed with the Onyx pieces?

Also, Plush I know you are using the Neve 5442, didn't you have a Studer at one time? What are your thoughts on a comparison between those?

Again, I apologize for the hijack.

[Thom]

Manol,

Then by all means go simple. This can be accomplished in any number of ways given.

I am a fan of mixing straight to tape, I just have not done it in sometime. People want multitrack, yada yada... I don't think you can go wrong either way. Plush and Mark know their stuff, they will not steer you in the wrong direction.

I typically do 4 mics across the front on orchestras. I only add spots if necessary (and that is rare). The key is to have good ears and by all means have fun.

Thom

[Chunky But Funky]

Two thoughts come to mind to try and field a few of your questions. If you need one stand for a stereo pair of mics or Decca tree, I would consider one of these.

AiRR Support Model 200 Larger Pro Boom Mic Stand | VintageKing.com

I just got one from Vintage King. It seems pretty sturdy, and it collapses down into it's own carrying bag. That might be nice for travel! Website says it goes to 12.5 feet, but it may be a bit visually distracting in your application.

If you need a larger shock case for your rig, I've been closely looking at one of these for my new venture.

https://www.carvinguitars.com/produc...p?product=RW16

A sixteen space shock case for under $400, are you kidding me? My .02, that's all. You could even cut some foam for a locking rack drawer and keep everything in one tidy place. This very well could be overkill for what you are thinking.

Doug

[Manozi]

Thanks for the additional input.

Thom - so you recommend 4 mics across the stage on stands.
That's four SDCs, I presume. I had something similar in mind originally, only with 3 large-diaphragm condensers across the front of the stage. I will try to avoid spots, but will take additional mics, just in case I want to have that option.

Can I ask you guys for a bit more input on the actual positioning of the mics? Any other suggestions with 4, or so microphones, other than Thom's?
ORTF in the middle, and two sides? Or would that create phasing issues?
Also if I have 4 in front, across the stage, and would want to add a spot mic, wouldn't that mic be out of phase with the front ones?

Thank you,
Manol

[Plush]

I have gathered extra intelligence about your job from reading this thread and reading your responses, Manol. I am now in the camp that supports just a stereo pair direct to a recorder. The reason is that I did not realize that you had not done this before and I want to get behind a tried and true method that produces credible results each time.

Other benefits of the two mic/simple recorder approach are:

1. battery operation gets rid of the problems with differing power, differing connections. Make sure your recorder can deliver 10mA of current on the phantom power.

2. two mic recording technique, carefully set-up, gives legendary results.

3. you can hang the mics or use a simple stand and an AKG stereo bar. ($29)

4. The orchestra mixes itself into your ORTF stereo pair.

No mixer necessary-cuts weight, cuts expense

-==================================================

To answer your other questions about phase and 4 across the front recording technique: Using an ORTF main pair to anchor your stereo picture, there is no phase problem to add two omni mics on either side of the main pair. These may be, according to the width of the stage, approx. 10-15 feet on either side of your main pair.

An added soloist spot will not be out of phase with the front main array. Why would it be? It is a sufficient distance from the main pair and it is facing the same direction as the main pair.

The reason I have revised my suggestions to you is that now I know what the tapes will be used for and to what audience they are directed.

This is the type of job, and trip, that is supposed to be fun, so approach it that way.

[Jim vanBergen]

Manol-

You've received excellent advice. I agree with the "direct to 2" approach.

JvB

[Manozi]

Hi Plush,

Thank you so much for the input!
I have a much better idea of how to do this recording now.

I am definitely going with the main ORTF pair. I might add two omnis on the side as well. I have access to an Oktava MK012A SDC that I will take along as a soloist spot.

I am currently talking to a rental company about getting a 'bulk' discount deal on some equipment, and if I can fit it within the budget, I might ask them for two omni SDCs, and a portable HD recorder, that can record as a main, and also output to a laptop thru ADAT for a backup, hopefully.

Everything is starting to make sense

Thanks again, and I will keep everyone posted on the results!


Cheers,
Manol

[Manozi]

Also, Plush (or anyone else that can answer this):

How high should the ORTF pair in the middle be?

I know this is relative, and it depends on the hall/placement of the orchestra to an extent, but can anyone give me at least a starting point, from which to start 'listening'?

I've only done this technique once before, and it was with various chamber music ensembles. I had to listen and 'guess' there as well


Thanks!
Manol

[videoteque]

Everything is starting to make sense

Another happy customer...

[dbssound1]

Hey there,

I know I'm late to the party, but I'd like to throw in my two sense.

I've used a ton of different things on location doing classical music recordings (that's all I do). I think that in the size halls you are recording in that you might wan to opt for a spaced omni technique versus an ORTF. The ORTF will give you a good spread, but to get a rich full sound in that size hall you will nee to have the microphones fairly close. I don't know what the hall requirements, or the unions are like there, but you will likely have to fly the microphones, and will not be able to have any stands in the hall.

The spaced omni will give you a great spread, rich full low end, and nice balance of direct and room ambience.

As far as microphones I would say Schoeps, DPA, or Gefells.

If you decide to do an ORTF Get the Gefell M930s. They have the same self noise as the schoeps, and 8dB greater signal to noise.

For your recorder situation I would recommend looking into a Alesis Masterlink. You can record 24/96 and then burn red book al from one machine. Also, you can use it in the studio when you come back. It's easier that the rig I carry around, and when you are in a foreign land, the less things you have that can go wrong, the better (I'm a mac user, and I would hate to have an issue with my laptop while abroad. Good luck finding parts!).

If you want to do a disk based recording, the Metric Halo stuff is awesome.

You would need a good 2 channel pre (also something you can use in the studio back home). I suggest the Grace designs m 201. I use the 801s and think they are the best pres I've ever used. We shot them out against the millenia, avalon, amek, and many others and they out preformed them all.

As far as you power issues, you should be able to solve all of them by getting adapters at radio shack. Check all of your gear first, but most gear (including your laptop) are auto switching devices. Basically you slap on an adapter and plug them in. no fuss, no muss. Other pieces like the Grace preamps you merely change a switch near the power cable.

Just my thoughts.

all the best, and good luck on your sessions!

[Gerax]

Hello

I agree with the majority of the posts above; I myself am not comfortable with straight mixing to 2 tracks, for several reasons; I mean, I've done it and it really represent a truer vision of the picture you are recording, given that you have a low number of mics involved, but I've come across several situations where multitrack setups were mandatory; a pair of examples: you have a set of music pieces where the arrangement of the orchestra is changed, instruments are added/taken out, or you have opposite balances than the piece you recorded first. Also, usually producers want to have control on the balance of the recording; if the orchestra isn't rehearsed to perfection with the conductor and dynamics aren't right in the room you may need to be able to "raise that viola passage on bar 65" if you are asked to...Also, you may not know the pieces or repertoire so well that you are confident with getting the balances straight to 2 track...that's your vision of the balance, it may not be the true one or the conductor's producre's one...
My approach is to get the majority of the sound from my main ORTF and outriggers pairs, and use some spot mics on trickier sources. I've gone as far as having 16 tracks recorded for an orchestra (depending on the size); horns, woodwinds and farther in the hall sources are those that may need a spot mic for a bit more focus.
If the dynamics are well rehearsed and the main pair is working well within the hall you're recording in your need of spot mics should be minimal; this is another key facotr: the acoustics of the room; I once recorded in a beautifull church...with something like 4 seconds of reverb time...the main pair alone would've been not enough, as the orchestra's direct sound was washed away in the church's reverb...spot mics and multitracking saved the day in that occasion.
This to say that you should do what's necessary, not what's "manly".
Also, I record to a double system; never get to a gig without a backup. Even if it's a CDRW deck. I have my system set up so that I split my signal from the pres using the onboard AD option, going out from the dual lightpipe (recording @48KHz max) outs into an M-Audio Lightbridge interface (32 I/O) into PTMpowered on my Dell Laptop (16 tracks at once), and simultaneously into a Mackie SDR2496 HD recorder for backup. It works, it's reliable and portable (it all fits into a 12 RU rolling case).
As for mics be sure to check out DPA 4060: they are so tiny and affordable it's incredible how they sound good and natural. You could fit several in your budget and have a top notch set of mics for classical recording.

Hope this helps

L.G.

[Plush]

You can start with your main ORTF pair about 12 feet above the stage. Also try 10 feet.
A starting position for the hang/stand is right behind the conductor. Experiment because a higher mic position will favor the rear of the orchestra (maybe too much brass). A position closer to the edge of the stage will give you a wider included angle and a more exaggerated stereo picture.

You know that you are making a mistake if you cannot clearly hear the hall ambience in the mic pick-up. Move back to include it.

Also, with using ORTF with a a good orchestra, the group makes the balance for you.
You can subtly push up the left or right to taste.

Try things out. Just because you are moving from hall to hall doesn't mean you can't try anything you want. Listen to the orchestra as they are rehearsing. Then if you want to change something, march right out while they are playing and move your mics. Don't mind that some facemakers are wondering why you are out on stage while they are playing. This is YOUR rehearsal too. (And that is exactly what you tell them right to their face should they say anything to you.)

Other posters here are good contributors thats for sure. However, in my suggestions, I tried to keep to your budget.

Originally Posted by Manozi

Also, Plush (or anyone else that can answer this):

How high should the ORTF pair in the middle be?

I know this is relative, and it depends on the hall/placement of the orchestra to an extent, but can anyone give me at least a starting point, from which to start 'listening'?

I've only done this technique once before, and it was with various chamber music ensembles. I had to listen and 'guess' there as well


Thanks!
Manol

[IJouk]

You need to choose the appropriate angle to your ORTF stereo par. It must be balanced more to string section area, something of 20 degree. It is really impotent for good balance.

[Manozi]

Plush,

Thanks a lot for your latest post regarding the ORTF positioning!

I appreciate your advice - it has been very useful


Cheers,
Manol

[studentjohn36]

My two Dominican Pesos on this issue:

When recording to 2-track, my fundamental law is that there is always a fundamental spaced omni pair out in front of the orchestra, and everything else out there is subservient to it. With the "Decca" center mic (omni, or coincident pair, be it Mid-side, Blumlein, ORTF or whatever) the primary centre pair can stand to be a little further towards the wings. A really reverberant hall can help you if the main omni pair is less than perfect in placement, but there is not that much wiggle room.

But the center mic, as well as all other wings, maybe another pair to the rear to help the woodwinds, are mixed significantly lower than the primary stereo pair. You SHOULD be able to listen to just the primary pair and hear pretty well what you want to, and subtly bring the other microphones into the mix will clarify little details.

My first omni pair back in 1978 was a pair of battered EV635's!

JG

[avebr]

Originally Posted by Plush

(...)
Sound will be magnificent as the orchestra mixes itself into your 4 front mics. Don't screw yourself with too many choices and too many tracks or mics. Be bold and mix it like a man.
(...)

I loved this! Another *great* post, Plush! I can't say anything after that!


But about power and related...

Originally Posted by mpdonahue

(...)
Power in Brazil is a mixture of Europlug and Multistandard sockets at 240v. You should invest in a stepdown isolation transformer. This will probably cost in the neighborhood of $500.
(...)

Unfortunatelly it's very catchy...

In Brazil you will find both 110V & 220V, at 60Hz. The bigest problem is that each city or state adopts 110 or 220... so everytime you must check locally to be sure!

In my city (São Paulo) it's 110V and it can mean anything from 110V to 130V! - and this is a big city! Another rule is that voltage is higher at the center of the city, and gets lower as you go to it's borders. In neighborhoods with hospitals nearby, also the voltage tends to be hotter (but in this case also more stable).

It's raining A LOT these days, so voltage fluctuations are even bigger, and some eventual power failures (usually minutes, sometimes hours, rarely a day - again at least on the bigest cities). It's always worse on smaller cities...

Old theaters (like one I usually record) have a lot of power and insulation problems. When it rains harder, not only you can't record (too much noise) but you must be carefull with flood / getting water on your equip. (or getting your equip. on the water, which could be even worse). Expect bad power, interference from lighting gear, air cond., motors,...

Always talk before with local people and ask about how's the place when it rains very hard, how is it's power,... and so on.

Now about plugs/outlets... you can find 3 or 4 (!) types, so here we go:


1. The American one, with ground (usually not connected)
This is rare but possible: See first attachment


2. The mixture of old-Brazilian (EU-like, two round pins?)+American - this is the Universal?
More common (not always ground connected, believe it only on not so old installs): See second attachment


3. The mixture of old-Brazilian (EU-like, two round pins)+American/Japanese two-pins, no ground.
These are common on older installs - sometimes only the round one, or only the flat...: See third attachment

also this one: See forth attachment


4. Now get ready: the new 'Brazilian standard' which is a total crap & different...
It may accept the old-Brazilian (EU-like two round pins) but I never tried.
It should be used on new installs since mid-2009, so it's mostly very rare from now.
You may find it in very fresh places, although many pro-users are trying to stay away: See fifth attachment


Be ready. Outside São Paulo it will be very hard to buy or rent good stuff.


I don't want to get you affraid, but to help you to antecipate all of these issues and really be prepared.

If I can be of any more help, you can PM me.


Good luck! Boa sorte!


all the best,
ave.

[Celloman]

Originally Posted by Plush

I have gathered extra intelligence about your job from reading this thread and reading your responses, Manol. I am now in the camp that supports just a stereo pair direct to a recorder.

This is my recommendation as well. Putting most of your money into a pair of high end mics like Schoeps CMC6MK21 or 41, or Sennheiser MKH8040. and a great stereo recorder. A 15' manfrotto lighting stand (and some weights)and some good stereo cables as well. Keeping it simple can yield wonderful results and keep a proper aesthetic of the concert venue.

Mike

[evisto]

Originally Posted by Plush

I recommend that you keep it really simple. This will be easier for you, cheaper on your pocketbook AND it will give you great sound.

Those halls look beautiful and don't be intimidated by the size. You will be working the perimeter of the stage with 4 mics, 4 Neumann MNV87 cable hangers, 4 cables, a Mackie mixer and a solid state or hard drive recorder. Buy a 5th mic and a 5th mnv 87 for soloist pick-ups.

My suggestion is not to use a multi-track interface and not to record on a computer. WHY? Because you should mix the program right on the spot to two track and call it a day. That's what heavy closers do and that's what you should do.

For your mics I recommend 4 Shure KSM 141 switchable omni/cardioid mics. 4 100ft. Canare star-quad or Mogami 2554 cable should do fine. A mackie 1220 Onyx should work and the recorder could be a KORG 1000 or a Tascam 1000 DVD recorder.

Backup would be onto a laptop.

Sound will be magnificent as the orchestra mixes itself into your 4 front mics. Don't screw yourself with too many choices and too many tracks or mics. Be bold and mix it like a man.

Then leave the hall and adjourn to a tavern to celebrate the incredible stereo picture!

I haven´t used the mackie onix, do you think it can be used to record classical music with total guarantee?

evisto

[Audiop]

Maybe Manozi met a nice girl and got married in Brazil.. two years ago! ;-)


/Peter

[didier.brest]

Originally Posted by dbssound1

If you decide to do an ORTF Get the Gefell M930s. They have the same self noise as the schoeps, and 8dB greater signal to noise.

No. The signal-to-noise ratio that you are dealing with may be the maximum signal-to-noise ratio close to the saturation level of the mic ? Which has no practical interest because these mics will not be saturated in a main pair for an orchestra take. If they have the same noise level (15 dBA or so), they will have the same actual signal-to-noise ratio. Moreover the ambient noise in a public concert may be higher is higher than the mic self- noise

[rumleymusic]

Maybe Manozi met a nice girl and got married in Brazil.. two years ago! ;-)

He, he. And he could have 2 kids by now.

There should be a time sensitive termination button on some posts so people stop giving advice years after the event.