Bluegrass recording

[Randy Moore]

I'm going to be recording a bluegrass band (good players) soon
and I'm looking for helpful tips from the people that have done this type of music before. I have engineered bluegrass at live shows before and know what it should sound like. We are going to set them up in a circle and mic each instrument. the instruments are fiddle, banjo, mandolin, 2 acoustic guitars and electric bass. My mic selection is 2 AT 4033se, 2 sm 81, 1 AKG C4000b and 1 AKG solid tube mic. The album is for the fiddle player so that needs the best mic combination. any help with what mic sounds best on the instruments would be helpful. I have used both the sm81 and the AT 4033 on acoustid guitar before but fiddle and mandolin and banjo I'm not sure what mic would sound best that I own. I'll be using the Soundcraft preamps and a Focusrite Red 7 (solid tube?).Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Randy Moore
www.sunsetrecordingstudio.com

[brownmouse]

you just have to experiment with mic choice and placement (tone vs. bleed, etc..). but i dunno start with something like the at 4033's on guitars and maybe the sm-81's on mandolin and banjo, as far as fiddle.... a ribbon would be nice if you could rent one (sorry, i have had zero luck with the other 2 akg mics you mentioned). maybe try that or if that doesnt work then try something else entirely.
good luck,
joshua

[hollywood_steve]

You might want to post this over on the Remote forum. Rick Sutton did a "set 'em up in a circle" recording with similar instruments like this several months ago and posted photos and comments in the Remote forum, maybe last fall.

[NathanEldred]

Electric bass is a blessing and a curse. It has zero bleed if DI'd, but then you have to deal with headphones, which the bluegrass guys don't like. If he's got an amp, expect the bass to get into every mic in the recording. Basically a larger room and the null area of a microphone's polar pattern are your friends.

[Jay Kahrs]

Give the bass player a TINY amp, maybe 30 watt with a 10" or something and get it to sound good in the room. Most classic bluegrass records were cut with only a few mics that captured the sound of the room and then spot mics for solos or things that need more presence. The worst thing you could do is seperate everyone and give them headphones.

[Randy Moore]

Electric bass is going direct (no bleed) and they will use headphones. mic selection is my concern. I know that the acoustic guitars will sound good with the 4033 or sm 81 but the fiddle, banjo and mandolin I'm concerned with. I have recorded banjo and fiddle with the solid tube/ Focusriter Red 7 combination and sounded good. The fiddle player is paying for this, it's his album so I want to make sure that his fiddle sounds great. I think in my mind the 4033 would be too harsh in the upper mids (2k)for fiddle. Also would the mandolin and banjo sound beter with the 4033 or sm 81 or AKG C4000b ?

Randy Moore
www.sunsetrecordingstudio.com

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally posted by Randy Moore
Electric bass is going direct (no bleed) and they will use headphones. mic selection is my concern.

Why are they using headphones? Your setting yourself and them up for a bad performance.

[Randy Moore]

Their using headphones to hear the electric bass guitar.

Randy Moore
www.sunsetrecordingstudio.com

[Dobroman]

Bluegrass is what I record most, and love it. Check Ron Bakers(formerly Ronda Vincents bas player) album with Adam Steffie. While I know the "Classic " sound of bluegrass is a preformance around one mic or in a circle with each instrument mic up, I don't think it's done that way much anymore. The younger folks seem like the refined production. They normally want to track as a group, but also like to be able to overdub. Thus the need for seperation. Not many pickers can do the Ricky Skaggs and Big Thunder thing around one stereo mic and slam it. If they can, great!

What are some of the albums they like? If it's Allison and Union Station then you need a mic for the fiddle and mandolin that has soft smooth highs. If they listen to Del McCurry and like his sound , a little more highs will be ok. I like the Royer 121 or a pair of KM 84's fo fiddle and mandolin depending on the song.

[Randy Moore]

Thanks Dobroman,

The players are older but play well and the project is very small budget so I can't rent or purchase mics for it. Of the mics I own which would you put on each instrument?

2 AT 4033SE
2 SM 81
1 AKG C4000B
1 AKG Solid Tube (modified)

Fiddle
Mandolin
Banjo
2 Acoustic Guitars
Electric Bass (DI)

Randy Moore
www.sunsetrecordingstudio.com

[SONGDOC]

If the fiddle is the main istrument I would use the 1 AKG Solid Tube, maybe a sm81 on mando, and try the 1 AKG C4000B on the banjo. i agree the 4033's sound great on acoustic.

[Randy Moore]

Does the AT 4033se mic have too harsh of bite at 2-4k to use on the mandolin and banjo? The sm 81 and AKG C4000B have more top end but not as harsh at 2-4k to my ears. Sometimes that's great on the right acoustic guitar and sometimes it's a bad thing.
The AKG solid tube mic I have used on fiddle before (smooth top with the Focusrite Red 7 Mic pre / comp but sometimes too much low mid). Thanks for everyone's input. I just want to do the best for each instrument with the equipment that I have at the moment. Maybe in the future I will be able to add some ribbon mics and things that I'm hearing on the records. Does anyone know why so many bluegrass bands use the AT 4033 mic live?

Randy Moore
www.sunsetrecordingstudio.com

[SONGDOC]

In my opinion, they use the 4033's because of that 2-4k bit. I've noticed it really makes those intruments have the bite, and voice to cut through the mix.
As for mando, i have used them with some success. Some times that harsh range makes it a little too bright for mando. but it is always best to throw it up and check it out first. The 4033's have a way of surprising you.

[jabney]

Here's the way I heard it from someone who has been mic'ing (and playing) bluegrass for years. The single mic' used to be a staple of bluegrass then was all but abandoned. The Del McCoury Band has been credited with reviving the use of a single mic' in the mid 90s. At that time the AT-4033 was about the cheapest 'respectable' condenser mic' you could find. Now you might think that wouldn't have mattered in the highly lucrative field of bluegrass music :-( but for whatever reason it did matter. Thus the 4033 became a tradition.

As for mic' priority, it is bluegrass, and bluegrass songs are all fiddle songs at heart, but the fiddle itself is not that essential to bluegrass per-se (IMHO) unlike, say, the mandolin or a high-lonesome vocal. Do the songs and arrangements feature the fiddle? Has the fiddle player demanded (or even hinted at) special treatment in tracking and mixing? You said these were older players, so maybe the main concern of all the band members (fiddle player included) is getting the best possible recording of the whole band and the songs.

Since this is being done on a budget, why not ask the players to bring in some mic's. Surely one of them has a Shure SM 57 which is always handy to have around.

The small bass amp and no phones idea sounds good to me. It's not like you're going to be getting very much isolation anyhow with the SM 81s.

[Randy Moore]

I have several sm 57 mics but did not think they would be better than the condensors that I own. The fiddle player does want special treatment, it is his project (not the band). He plays in five bands and uses who would be best for the gig when he books shows. He sells the CD's at the fiddle competitions that he wins (mostly up and coming fiddle players). This guy has been playing for over 50 years. All I have to do is capture what they play and make the instruments sound good. It is an instrumental CD of fiddle songs.


Randy Moore
www.sunsetrecordingstudio.com

[jajjguy]

Originally posted by Randy Moore
This guy has been playing for over 50 years. All I have to do is capture what they play and make the instruments sound good.

This is exactly why people are suggesting you not give them headphones. This is a decision that hugely affects the way these great players will play together. If your job is to stay out of their way and get it to tape sounding good, then giving them headphones is a big mistake. In any case, this should be a decision you let them make, knowing the tradeoffs, not one you can make for them.

[SONGDOC]

Man, if you have one, try a 57 on the banjo. It may surprise you. I have had a lot of luck with it. Oly thing to watch for is if you need the banjo to step out, you might miss some of the high end detail. otherwise, the 57 will let it set in a good spot in the mix.

[Fibes]

Too much talk of mic selection IMO. The placement and comfort of the players and the phase relationships of the mics are going to be the BIG factors here. Get them right in their element (the room) and it'll be righteous on playback.

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally posted by Fibes
Too much talk of mic selection IMO. The placement and comfort of the players and the phase relationships of the mics are going to be the BIG factors here. Get them right in their element (the room) and it'll be righteous on playback.

Believe it!

Phase relationships are the strongest argument for the one-mic approach. If it's the fiddle player's record, point the mic at him!

I saw Jerry Douglas and Del McCoury the other day. Jerry Douglas and his band were really mangled through the sound system. Really weird to hear acoustic instruments with a big old scoop out of the midrange... I tried hard to pay attention to the music and ignore the harsh sounds. Spent some time cursing the soundfolks and the big bucks Meyer system.

Then Del McCoury and his five-piece came on. Two mics. It sounded great! It was warm, it was cozy- as far as I could tell the only difference was, they only had two mics on stage, a good 15 feet apart. Yeah, those guys knew how to work those mics! Get right up on it for the solo, fade back for the rhythm part. That fiddle sounded so rich and warm- must have been quite the fiddle, certainly the player was quite the player! But without all that phase hell from having a bunch of mics up there, mmmm.... it was clear that one mic would have sounded that much warmer and more natural still.

Now in the studio, you can finesse a few mics into really healthy phase relationships. But you got to mono it all and move the mics until everything sounds great. Without healthy phase relationships, things gonna be harsh, weird, and no amount of outboard will ever fix it. Well, OK, a couple IBP's is gonna help a lot! But no amount of EQ, compression, whatever.

Comfortable players making music in the room, is gonna be the best record. Put that bass amp where it sounds great on those happy in-phase mics!

[Dobroman]

I don't know when your session is but I hope it goes great.
One mic on a live a live stage can sound great. Doyle Lawson and Quicksilver used a 4052 , I think it was, for a couple of years. They stood in a semi circle. Soloist would move forward for his break. Now Doyle would put marks on the floor so everyone new exactly where to stand. The mic was exactly 38 and 1/2 inches off the floor. It wasn't just great music, with all their movement it was like watching dancers, weaving between each other to let the soloist out front. GREAT Show, but I would think twice about doing this in a studio. I have tried and don't want to do it again without the right people. It still sounded like AM radio.

Remember the 3 to 1 rule. If mandolin mic is 12" from the mandolin and guitar mic is 12" from the guitar, make sure the mics are greater than 36" apart and insturments about 5 feet apart. There will be no phase issues with this set-up. If you have the room a circle would work well,,, if the room has great accoustics. Nulls and peaks of freqencies from around 350 hz down caused by boundry reflections in a small room, thus causing phase problems can be a nightmare.
I would do the close mic and spread them out. No headphones and let them rip it up. Just watch the stand-up to make sure you don't lose any notes from the boundry reflections
Hope this helps some.

[Ted Nightshade]

I don't think the 3 to 1 rule solves phase problems. It may get them to an "acceptable" level, if there is such a thing, but you will still have real phase issues- all you need to do confirm this is mute the other mic and unmute it, listening to the first mic source the whole time. Things will get damaged in a way that's not fixable. I have found that if even at -60 dB or more, the bleed from the other mic will screw up the sound of the first mic if they are not adjusted to work together in phase.

I agree that without masters of the technique, the one-mic thing as done live by Del McCoury et al will not be a winner in the studio. There are other ways to do one-mic though. You need an mic with excellent off-axis response and you pick up the whole ensemble- folks lean in a little bit or just play louder to change the mix. If the mic is not an omni, directional characteristics of the mic will let you spotlight the fiddle player or singer or whatever needs some help. Or use a stereo pair to get the whole ensemble.

You can use a few mics and have it all work in phase, but the only way to make sure it works in phase is to phase check the mics together in mono and make sure no damage is done, or with an IBP. 3 to 1 helps but you'll still have real phase issues.

[inaudio]

I do bluegrass all the time mostly live but I get excellent board recordings using either separate or single mic techniques - totally depends on the band.

But try this sometime: Single mic for vocals, and a stereo pair below for the instruments.

Since much of what I do is live, the spacing of mics is pretty much up to how close together the band wants to be, but it means close micing if it is spearate mics. I feel the pahe rule can be bent a bit if you point the mics away from each other and of course if they are closer...

Lou