Help with recording voice and piano in a bad room

[sparklehorse617]

Hello all,

I'm recording a series of short songs (classical in style) featuring solo voice and piano in a classroom (ugh) next week. I'm obviously not interested in getting the sound of the room, but I'm also wary of "crowding" the performers, esp. the singers. Also complicating things is that, as this is a class with different singers, I don't think there'll be time to do a lot of mic moving in between songs - it's more a "set-up once and get out of the way" type of thing.

I have two decent sdc's and one decent ldc at my disposal - any tips for mic placement? Maybe xy/ortf just in front of the piano, with the LDC somewhere in front of the singer?

Thanks!

[sparklehorse617]

bump

[locosoundman]

It depends on what you mean by classroom. Some are more acoustically active than others. Some have more noise problems than others. It also depends on what your intentions are for the final product - i.e. What is the purpose for this recording? What sort of sound do you have pictured in your head?

If the room is very active, one thing you can try is to have the singer face the open lid of the piano so that the piano is in the null of the vocal mic. You can set up an impromptu "vocal booth" by placing moving blankets on mic stands behind and on both sides of the singer to eliminate some of the room. Close mic both singer and piano - mix and add reverb later.

Else, if the room is fairly quiet and acoustically dry, you can try an ORTF pair to capture both singer and piano. Place the array to get a good blend, but keep it close enough that you will have the option to add reverb in post.

[sparklehorse617]

Originally Posted by locosoundman

It depends on what you mean by classroom. Some are more acoustically active than others. Some have more noise problems than others. It also depends on what your intentions are for the final product - i.e. What is the purpose for this recording? What sort of sound do you have pictured in your head?

If the room is very active, one thing you can try is to have the singer face the open lid of the piano so that the piano is in the null of the vocal mic. You can set up an impromptu "vocal booth" by placing moving blankets on mic stands behind and on both sides of the singer to eliminate some of the room. Close mic both singer and piano - mix and add reverb later.

Else, if the room is fairly quiet and acoustically dry, you can try an ORTF pair to capture both singer and piano. Place the array to get a good blend, but keep it close enough that you will have the option to add reverb in post.

Because these are songs that we - the class - have written for the singers, we just want to get whatever archival recording we can. But it's the singers' class, a la a workshop, and they weren't even going to record it until I offered to - so the problem is is that I really can't arrange anything or mess around with positioning - I just have to do my thing while staying out of the way.

Because it's a dry, small-ish room that doesn't really flatter anybody, I don't want to be too far away. I was thinking about an ORTF set-up in the front of the room, but am worried that this will still get too much room - therefore, should I close (or closer) mic the piano and just try to get a mic as close as possible to the singer?

Thanks for your help, by the way!

[GKennedy]

You might have to live with a roomy sounding piano but make sure the perspectives are right. ie the singer sounds infront of the piano

Have you got any control off how far the singer stands out from the piano? If they are singing from the bow of the piano - you will probably struggle to get any separation and you will have to get it all on a pair. If they can take a few steps out and still be comfortable you might have some scope for getting a nice vocal sound and drying up the piano. Try something coincident infront of the singer - 1- 1.5m and spot the piano off the tail with your LDC. I say coincident because if you are that close any L/R movement will be exagerated with a spaced pair set up.


GK

[sparklehorse617]

Originally Posted by GKennedy

You might have to live with a roomy sounding piano but make sure the perspectives are right. ie the singer sounds infront of the piano

Have you got any control off how far the singer stands out from the piano? If they are singing from the bow of the piano - you will probably struggle to get any separation and you will have to get it all on a pair. If they can take a few steps out and still be comfortable you might have some scope for getting a nice vocal sound and drying up the piano. Try something coincident infront of the singer - 1- 1.5m and spot the piano off the tail with your LDC. I say coincident because if you are that close any L/R movement will be exagerated with a spaced pair set up.


GK

When I watched them the other week, the singer was definitely out from the piano off to "stage right", i.e. not leaning into the bow as you mentioned. I hadn't thought about xy/ortf in front of the singer with a spot piano mic, which could work... So you think about 4' out from the singer? About how high up, maybe 7-8'?

This is very helpful - Thanks!

[Jungle Jazz]

Are the mics you mentioned the only ones you have access to? While the pair of SDCs should be fine for piano, in a really bad room, you might even consider using a handheld type of mic for the vocalist. They wouldn't need to actually hold the mic, but those kinds of mics often have better off axis rejection. Just a thought.

[locosoundman]

If I am out in front of a grand piano with the lid wide open, I will usually try to have my mic's even in height with the top of the lid. In a classroom, you may have to deal with a very low ceiling so it is difficult to say without being there. Certainly, I would go up to at least eye-height with the singer, but a little higher would probably be better

It's a good starting point anyway. If there are balance troubles, put the piano on half-stick (but you know that already). I always try to center the singer in the image, so if that means moving the array around a little towards the side of the piano, I am more than happy to do so. I will usually stick with ORTF unless there is going to be some movement on the part of the singer.

[bove]

Originally Posted by sparklehorse617

Because these are songs that we - the class - have written for the singers, we just want to get whatever archival recording we can. But it's the singers' class, a la a workshop, and they weren't even going to record it until I offered to - so the problem is is that I really can't arrange anything or mess around with positioning - I just have to do my thing while staying out of the way.

Because it's a dry, small-ish room that doesn't really flatter anybody, I don't want to be too far away. I was thinking about an ORTF set-up in the front of the room, but am worried that this will still get too much room - therefore, should I close (or closer) mic the piano and just try to get a mic as close as possible to the singer?

Thanks for your help, by the way!

I'd say that an ORTF setup, in the front, capturing the performances as the audience hears it, would work nicely for this. Find a good spot where you get a nice balance of sound from the voice and the piano. Given your situation, it seems wise to keep it simple. If you get a nice result, and make it look easy, they will be thrilled.

[sparklehorse617]

Originally Posted by bove

I'd say that an ORTF setup, in the front, capturing the performances as the audience hears it, would work nicely for this. Find a good spot where you get a nice balance of sound from the voice and the piano. Given your situation, it seems wise to keep it simple. If you get a nice result, and make it look easy, they will be thrilled.

Yeah, I think simple is best. I think the pair in the front will be the main mics, and a spot on the piano will be a good option for mixing, as my worry is that it will sound too distant and thin in that room.

Thanks for all the help!