Is Blumlein always M/S?

[timtoonz]

Hope this isn't too dumb a question.... I promise to ask a smart one next time.

I've been playing around with 2 cheap ribbon mics (Apex 210's) in 'Blumlein pair' formation. I set'em up about 8 ft. in front of the drum kit, and at first I tried to angle them so that they'd roughly be facing at the left and right side of the kit respectively. But phasing was a big problem so...

Next I tried angling them so one is facing right at the kit, and the other is facing at right angles to it, so kinda' at the side walls. The question that occurs to me is that once you use 2 figure 8 mics in this kind of setup, is it automatically "mid-side" recording? Are Blumlein and M/S kinda synonymous?

School me! I tried the search feature - really - and came up with very little...

Display of ignorance mode off.

[andychamp]

Blumlein is a special form of X/Y (coincident) using two fig.8 mics. Each mic goes directly to L or R.

In a M/S arrangment the Side has to be a fig.8, while the Middle can have about any polar pattern (including fig.8). That M/S signal has to be converted into a L/R signal.

You could turn a Blumlein pair into a M/S arrangement by rotating it 45 degrees, but you'd have to process the signals differently in each case.

[Martin Kantola]

Originally Posted by timtoonz

School me! I tried the search feature - really - and came up with very little...

You see, searching Gearslutz (if that's what you did) might not be the best way to find some good info on basic audio engineering.

Unfortunately.

Usually Google and Wikipedia works better, but there are also many books. It was not a stupid question, quite the opposite, but you can find your answer in microphones 101.

This is the high end forum. Whatever that means?

Martin

[Reptil]

go to "advanced search"
type "Blumlein"
select "in titles only"
voila:

[Drumsound]

Tim,

If you're having phase anomalies with Blumlein there's something wrong. Blumlein is a coincident pair set at a 90-degree angle, as stated above pretty much X/Y with figure 8s. So I'm gonna guess something is wired wrong somewhere or there's something weird happening at that spot in the room?

M/S is a sum and difference the side mic needs to be multed and one channel has the polarity reversed. The left and right are created by adding or subtracting from the mid in the stereo matrix.

If you use a Blumlein pair with on mic pointing directly at the source and the other off axis you're just pointing the pair somewhere else.

Your Blumlein pair should look like this. These are cardioid mics, but for illustration purposes this is a good photo.

[af_analog]

Originally Posted by timtoonz

I've been playing around with 2 cheap ribbon mics (Apex 210's) in 'Blumlein pair' formation.

a word of advice...check that one of your Apex 210's is not wired backwards. This was a very common problem with these mics. I bought one a few years back, really dug it, found another on sale last year and bought it...the newer one was wired backwards . So, out came the soldering iron and voila, life is good again. I used them last weekend in the exact same setup you are describing and the results were fantastic

[Blast9]

Just to clarify - don't you need 3 mics for a MS setup

EG Blumlein pair for the side and a mono mic fo rthe centre.

Is this correct?

You then need 3 desk channels - one of the side channels must be reverse polarity to properly fold down to mono?

[The Byre]

M-S and Bluemlein are two different things.

I suggest you look them up on Wikkipedia and-or Sound-on-Sound.

[beginagain]

NO
You only use two mics but will end up using three tracks...
One mike pointed at the source (mid), one pointed 90 degrees to it (side) (arranged above/below each other as in Blumlein)
These are recorded on two tracks and you duplicate the 'side' mic track on track 3 and REVERSE the polarity on it and pan accordingly.... (left right)
This technique was devised so radio producers could send out both mono and stereo signals and alter the stereo image ..... (as you reduce the volume of the 'side' mic tracks the picture narrows .... )

Also .... try the Glynn Johns method of recording drums ... it's kinda similair and produces a very big and effective stereo image .....

Also try changing mike patterns if you can ...... each one produces quite different results .... less or more of something .... bigger/smaller ... more open/closed .... it's almost fun ...

almost .....

Have fun

Michael

Just Jammin'

[Martin Kantola]

Originally Posted by Blast9

Just to clarify - don't you need 3 mics for a MS setup
EG Blumlein pair for the side and a mono mic fo rthe centre.
Is this correct?
You then need 3 desk channels - one of the side channels must be reverse polarity to properly fold down to mono?

Are you serious? Thousands of posts and you don't know your way around Blumlein and M-S?

People, do yourselves a favor. Read. Study. You will make better recordings and mixes. In this business you can never allow yourself to stop learning about new techniques and gear. And Alan Blumlein had this figured out over 70 years ago!

Martin

[timtoonz]

Originally Posted by Reptil

go to "advanced search"
type "Blumlein"
select "in titles only"
voila:

Thanks for the responses -- I've learned about Advanced Search thumbsup AND stereo miking techniques

To those who seem shocked and saddened by my ignorance (and that of others), I can only say in my defense that like lots of new-school studio types, I came up as a musician, then composer, then home-studio geek and now full-time award winning M/S-ignorant professional idjut!

90 percent of the recording I do is myself, and I leave the drums pretty much setup with a spaced pair overhead coz I like the sound. Sometimes I toy with XY and ORTF (yup - I know SOME fancy engineerin' talk!). And I've often seen the "Blumlein Pair" config, but wasn't sure where to aim it, really.

Coz if all you know is the orientation of the mics to each other (ie. 90 degrees askew, one atop the other), if you go ahead and aim it straight at your sound source (like a +) then it kinda IS M/S... assuming you treat it/mix it appropriately after... What I DIDN'T know was that normally - if I read correctly - the Blumlein pair is set up like an X relative to the source. THis is what I tried before and it sounded lovely, though I'm hamstrung by a small room... The other thing I found out is that for the "mid" part of an M/S setup, many folks use a cardiod mic, with the figure 8 taking care of the sides. That makes more sense to me, since with the ribbon's in this setup, in my room, I was getting way too much overlap between channels to get a coherent image.

I'm gonna experiment with cardioid/figure 8 setups in M/S mode today and see what that's like.

Thanks again for all the informative responses, links and tips. Much as I love reading books, my favorite kind of learning is to "pick an expert's brain". And Gearslutz is a fantastic place for brainpicking! Even though some of the experts can get a bit cranky - usually for good reason.

cheers

[af_analog]

Again, I would strongly suggest you check your mics wiring as well...I would probably put money down that one of your mics may be wired backwards, it was a common problem with those particular mics...they are great mics for the price though once you get them wired properly

Just set them up beside eachother, capsules as close as possible...now clap your hands in front of them. If you are using a DAW, check the waveforms and make sure they are in phase with eachother.

[Blast9]

Originally Posted by Martin Kantola

Are you serious? Thousands of posts and you don't know your way around Blumlein and M-S?

People, do yourselves a favor. Read. Study. You will make better recordings and mixes. In this business you can never allow yourself to stop learning about new techniques and gear. And Alan Blumlein had this figured out over 70 years ago!

Martin

Well... was I correct or not? This is a discussion forum - The question wasn't about Blumlein config or Alan

BTW I do know what a Bunion config is

[Martin Kantola]

Lovely post, Timtoonz! To most efficiently pick someone's brain you need to know the basics I think - otherwise it's hard to ask the right questions. But yeah, I prefer a musical guys who wants to learn tech stuff over a geek who doesn't understand music!

Martin

[Martin Kantola]

Originally Posted by Blast9

Well... was I correct or not?

No, you were not correct. A typical M-S setup is only two mikes and two recorded tracks.

This is a discussion forum - The queston wasn't about Blumlein config or Alan

Last time I checked it was about how the Blumlein technique relates to M-S. So if you know the other it helps.

BTW I do know what a Bunion config is

Sorry if I hurt your feelings, but when you suggested a Blumlein pair for the S signal I really thought you didn't. Funny thing is that your idea with three microphones could actually work if I'm not mistaken, but you need to turn the Blumlein pair 90 degrees and sum them. Not sure what a hallux valgus has to do with this.

Martin

[Drumsound]

Originally Posted by Martin Kantola

No, you were not correct. A typical M-S setup is only two mikes and two recorded tracks.
Martin

If one doesn't have an outboard M/S matrix is totally viable to record to 3 tracks, the Mid the side with normal polarity and the side with polarity reversed. There are a number of reasons (including ease later on...) to print all three tracks.

[LaLaFaV]

Originally Posted by Drumsound

If one doesn't have an outboard M/S matrix is totally viable to record to 3 tracks, the Mid the side with normal polarity and the side with polarity reversed. There are a number of reasons (including ease later on...) to print all three tracks.

For M-S in a DAW situation, it seems like a waste of: #1-an input and #2-disk space.
I would record 2 tracks: #1 "M (cardiod-facing the source)" & #2 "S (figure 8- perpendicular to the source)". You just have to take your "S" track and duplicate it so you have a copy where you can reverse the polarity and pan it opposite of your original "S" track. To sum it up, that makes 3 tracks: "M" panned center, "S-original" panned left and "S-copy" panned right with the polarity reversed.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by LaLaFaV

You just have to take your "S" track and duplicate it so you have a copy where you can reverse the polarity and pan it opposite of your original "S" track.

With a good DAW software like Samplitude, you don't even have to duplicate anything. You just select all objects on the "S" track and reverse polarity on one side in the object editor (even works for mono source material).

[LaLaFaV]

Originally Posted by d_fu

With a good DAW software like Samplitude, you don't even have to duplicate anything. You just select all objects on the "S" track and reverse polarity on one side in the object editor (even works for mono source material).

That's cool...
I use Protools. It's "good" enough for me. I don't mind the extra work. It takes 2 seconds.

[Drumsound]

Originally Posted by LaLaFaV

For M-S in a DAW situation, it seems like a waste of: #1-an input and #2-disk space.
I would record 2 tracks: #1 "M (cardiod-facing the source)" & #2 "S (figure 8- perpendicular to the source)". You just have to take your "S" track and duplicate it so you have a copy where you can reverse the polarity and pan it opposite of your original "S" track. To sum it up, that makes 3 tracks: "M" panned center, "S-original" panned left and "S-copy" panned right with the polarity reversed.

I'm not using a DAW, but even if I was I want to hear this going in, even before I hit record. So I set it up and record it that way. Then on each overdub session or at the mix all I have to do is move a couple pan knobs and push up 3 faders .

[MichaelPatrick]

As someone else said, they're two entirely different techniques. Blumlein is easy. It is two figures of 8 in an XY pattern.

MS requires practice. It has one left-right facing figure of 8 plus a front-facing cardiod or another figure of 8 facing front-back. To generate a stereo image you have to decode the mic signals in the board or with a preamp made for MS.

[MaestroNYC]

So just to clarify... only a M-S setup has to be decoded, but a Blumlein doesn't???

[SeanG]

Originally Posted by MaestroNYC

So just to clarify... only a M-S setup has to be decoded, but a Blumlein doesn't???

Correct.

[andychamp]

To echo something from another recent M/S thread:
when listening only to the Side channels, it's normal for them to sound weird and phasey. That's because one has the exact opposite polarity from the other.
The bulk of the sound is contained in the Middle channel. The side channels contain only the stereo information, and should be dosed carefully.

[LaLaFaV]

Originally Posted by Drumsound

I'm not using a DAW, but even if I was I want to hear this going in, even before I hit record. So I set it up and record it that way. Then on each overdub session or at the mix all I have to do is move a couple pan knobs and push up 3 faders .

Yeah, I assumed you were specifically talking about an analog situation (Oxide Lounge ), so that's why I started with "For M-S in a DAW situation". This way, people using a DAW like me who were wondering about different ways to track with M-S config could hear one method of approach. I totally understand the idea of wanting to hear the decoded stereo immediately. I just record myself usually anyway, so I have to play back the tracks to see if I want to move mics, change sounds, or whatever, when I'm getting sounds for a recording. I'd use a third track if I wanted to monitor immediately as I'm tracking. I'd just create the 3rd track and assign a second "S" track with the same input as the first "S" track. That way, I'd have an immediate duplicate "S" track to pan opposite, flip & monitor/blend.