Mics for Youth Orchestra

[SoundGuyIHS]

I'm the board op and residing "engineer" at my high school, and I'm also in the orchestra. We're pretty good, and all we get after concerts is a crappy sounding recording that does the group no justice. Does anybody know how to mic an orchestra, and what mics to use for the job? Since it's for school, it can't really be that expensive. I'm hoping the house manager for the auditorium will find some way to get it covered. Thanks in advance for the help.

[chris319]

Here is a very cheap solution:

Behringer XM8500 ULTRAVOICE Dynamic Cardioid Microphone | Full Compass

Mount two of them in an X-Y configuration like so:

www-dot-wikirecording-dot-org/XY_Stereo_Microphone_Technique

BE SURE to use balanced mic cables throughout.

[SoundGuyIHS]

Thanks Chris. I can go a little more expensive than that. Do you know of any good condenser mics that would help me?

[Transducers Swe]

Use either a time difference technique like spaced omni (A-B) or a quasi time difference technique like OFTF (two cardioid spaced 17cm 100 degrees angle). This will in my opinion give best results when decoding in a stereo speaker system. I find X/Y much more problematic. I generally use ORTF when I don't have much time for sound check.

[SoundGuyIHS]

Thanks transducers. Any advice for the type of mic? Small vs. large diaphram, etc...
Also, how far away from the group will give me the best noise ratio?

[chris319]

I'm not crazy about condenser mics due to the noise associated with the internal amplifiers. You'll get better signal-to-noise with a dynamic mic with a neodymium magnet. If this were my project I'd go with a pair of these:

Sennheiser e835 Evolution Series Cardioid Vocal Microphone | Full Compass

If you absolutely must have a condenser (I assume you've got 48V phantom power), without knowing a specific dollar figure you can spend I can suggest this:

Rode NT4 RODE-NT4 Stereo Microphone | Full Compass

If that's a little too rich for your blood, try a pair of these in an X-Y configuration:

AKG PERCEPTION100 Microphone, Large Diaphragm Condenser, Cardioid | Full Compass

If there is an audio rental house or recording studio in your area, you could consider renting mics for your performances (hey, the guys here in Hollywood do it). Then you could rent a pair of these:

AKG C414B XLS Large Diaphragm Condenser Microphone with Five Polar Patterns and Shock Mount | Full Compass

As far as mic placement goes, try placing them a few feet behind the conductor (toward the audience). Google around for orchestra mic placement.

You can audition three of these mics here:

Mic Table

[SoundGuyIHS]

Thanks a lot. The various choices of mics is really very helpful. Will a dynamic really reproduce the concert well? I was always under the impression that condensers are better for micing larger areas. Thanks again for all of your help

[Transducers Swe]

Originally Posted by chris319

I'm not crazy about condenser mics due to the noise associated with the internal amplifiers. You'll get better signal-to-noise with a dynamic mic with a neodymium magnet.

Hmm. There are plenty of very quiet condensers. Dynamic mics might be silent (since they are passive), but the frequency response does not lend itself well to accoustic aplications and definitely not to Symphony orchestra. The Sennheiser mentioned rolls off very steeply above 12kHz (I would not call that a full range mic even). A symphony orchestra has plenty of energy above that. Use a full range mic. The NT5 is not a bad deal, or the Oktava MK012. If you have the money and if you want to do A-B recordings, go for the DPA 4006 (or used B&K 4006) or Earthworks QTC1. One mistake that many that tries A-B is to place hte mics too far apart - which leads to a too wide image. The human ear only needs about a 17cm distance between the mics to get a good stereo image. I had good results up to about 60cm (depending on room and so on) more than that will create an unbalanced image.

Edit: I made some recordings of piano and violin using Oktava MK012 cardioids in ORTF setup. These were subsequently broadcast by the Swedish Radio. I have used this setup for string quartet too. I also have some recordings of a chamber orchestra that I made with spaced omni. Drop me your e-mail address and I'll send you the recordings for comparison.

[chris319]

Since it's for school, it can't really be that expensive.

Originally Posted by Randall

Grab a pair of the Blue Omnimouses from Full compass @ 595 each (marked down from 1300) .. away you go

Oktava MK012 = $1,150 US per pair

Earthworks QTC1 = $2,080 US per pair (if you can find them)

DPA 4006 = $3,310 US per pair

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/3211/matmonbag2ec0.gif

Transducers Swe is right. You want a mic with better high-end performance than the e835. If you can come up with > $400 the Rode NT5 is a good choice. For around $200 you can pick up a pair of Audio Technica AT 2020s:

Audio-Technica - Microphones, headphones, wireless microphone systems, noise-cancelling headphones & more : AT2020 : Cardioid Condenser Microphone

Audio-Technica AT2020 Large Diaphragm Condenser Microphone, Cardioid | Full Compass

www.miclisteningroom.org/ogg/at_2020.ogg

[SoundGuyIHS]

I bought an AT 2020 for myself a couple months back, and the sound from it is pretty decent, to say the least. I just didn't know if it was the greatest choice for live stuff. I'll definitely check out the Oktava MK012 pair also. The price doesn't seem too high, especially for the stereo pair. Same with the NT5s. Transducers Swe, my email address: SoundGuyIHS@yahoo.com

Look forward to hearing the samples!

Thanks again for all of the help

[chris319]

My goodness, if $1,200 is your idea of not that expensive, I'd hate to hear what your idea of "expensive" is.


If you've got $1,200 to blow on mics alone, may I presume you're all set with regard to preamps/mixers, quad shielded cables, stands, shock mounts, a recorder and all of those little goodies?

[chris319]

OK, the price of the Oktava MK012 depends on how many capsules it comes with. I assume one capsule, probably the cardioid if you are going to do ORTF, will do for your application.

Here is a link to ORTF mic placement:

ORTF stereo technique - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Michael Joly posts here and is an Oktava dealer who performs modifications to these mics. A lot of people seem to be very pleased with his mods, so you should send him an email or give him a call and discuss your needs with him. Or maybe he'll see this thread :-)

OktavaMod - Affordable Boutique Microphones

[Transducers Swe]

Originally Posted by chris319

Oktava MK012 = $1,150 US per pair

The MK012 should not be that expensive. I'd expect them to go for like $400 for the pair. Or did they change price policy altogether? Maybe a used DPA and Earthworks could also be an alternative? I don't know if they are hard to find, but it could be worth a try,

The Line Audio CM3 is a very nice and flat SD. It's about 300 USD for a pair (MICROPHONES LINE AUDIO DESIGN). It think you could fnd them in the US too.

[joelpatterson]

I got my pair of Octava MK-012's at Guitar Center for a hunnerd bucks apiece, but what do I know?

Just the two of them, in ORTF, on a stand that holds them about three feet over the head of the conductor, and as long as the hall is decent you'll get what you're after-- a sparklingly clear, dramatic, exciting picture of the group doing its thing.

[DPWilsonHenry]

Oktava Mk-012s at the Sound Room, The Trusted Source for Genuine Russian Oktava Microphones, Heil Microphones, Grado Labs Headphones and much more!!!! are $659 for a matched pair with omni,hyper,and cardioid capsules. I know tons of people are very satisfied with Sound Room's service, and they do their own in house QC.

I've heard good things about AKG C460b's with CK-61 caps, that is if you can find them used.

[chris319]

I got my pair of Octava MK-012's at Guitar Center for a hunnerd bucks apiece

What??? You didn't buy them from Michael? Heretic!

[big country]

Binaural recording - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jecklin Disk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

the image is just as important as the quality of the Mic's

XY an ORTF don't impress me much for stereo image

[SoundGuyIHS]

[quote=chris319;1811293]My goodness, if $1,200 is your idea of not that expensive, I'd hate to hear what your idea of "expensive" is.

My house manager said she would not mind spending $2500 or so on sound stuff. I assume that the most money I would spend would be on a mic, so I might as well go for a good one, and not waste the money on something not worth while. $1200 is totally expensive, but it could be worth it, especially if the mic we get lasts for a long time.
In regards to preamps though... I hate to say I'm using the ones on our board (an allen and heath), but it's the truth. I guess I could use suggestions for that too.
My general idea was to put a couple mics through the board, take the signal from the board to an interface, and record two tracks (one left, one right) into Cubase or Sonar or something. Maybe I'll have Protools and an Mbox before the concert, maybe not, but regardless I have a Lexicon Lambda and a laptop with Sonar that I own myself.
After researching, it looks like the Oktavas are what I'll go for. Transducers Swe, I took a look at that link you sent me and it really sounds good. The mics sound amazing...can I ask what kind of preamp you used? Obviously that's the next logical step.
Also, if anybody has better ideas about my signal routing...Is it even worth running the signal through my board if I get a better preamp?(regardless of lexicon's quality verb and signal processing, their preamps leave much to be desired).
I know, lots of questions, but so far it's been really helpful to hear all of this advice.

-SoundGuyIHS

[SoundGuyIHS]

Regarding the Oktavas on SoundRoom, I should go for the cardiod, right?

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by SoundGuyIHS

Regarding the Oktavas on SoundRoom, I should go for the cardiod, right?

Probably maybe... sometimes with omni's you'll get more of a wholeness... if the room sound is adding a niceness to the proceedings, omni's will capture that in a way that seems very complete and nutritious. Then, on the opposite extreme, if you were to use pinpoint hyper capsules, you'd get a more concentrated, more "exaggerating" maybe, picture of the group. I don't think you'd go horribly wrong with either or all three... lots of times, these kinds of nuances are something you'll only find out in real life, and even then it's maybe more a matter of taste than strict science.

[MichaelPatrick]

Rode NT4 is a reliable, low cost, and easy to use stereo small condenser mic. I use frequently for applications like this.

[chris319]

sometimes with omni's you'll get more of a wholeness... if the room sound is adding a niceness to the proceedings, omni's will capture that in a way that seems very complete and nutritious

Except you have no idea what the acoustics are like in the hall they'll be performing in. Omnis would be fine in a nice, treated studio with only the performers in it, but if they're in a high school auditorium with a live audience, you're going to pick up every cough and sneeze and who knows what else with nothing to reject room reverberation.

Oktava Mk-012s at the Sound Room, The Trusted Source for Genuine Russian Oktava Microphones, Heil Microphones, Grado Labs Headphones and much more!!!! are $659 for a matched pair with omni,hyper,and cardioid capsules.

Do you really need three capsules? If the acoustics are questionable and/or there is a live audience I can't see where you would need the omni. For $448 you can get a matched pair with cardioid capsules and be done with it:

Oktava MK012A-MSP Matched Pair (single capsule type)

At your level of experience your main concern is getting a clean recording, i.e. there isn't mysterious radio station audio or hums or buzzes bleeding into your system, rather than worrying about the subtle nuances of the stereo image or trying to squeeze out every last dB of S/N. Will two mics cover it? Is there a soloist or vocalist or presenter who will need special micing? Will you need to deliver a P.A. feed? Will you have sufficient opportunity to record rehearsals and fix any problems which may arise? Are you set up to properly meter/monitor levels? You have to think about all of these things, ESPECIALLY when you are doing remote recording as opposed to recording in a studio.

[aussie_techie]

Originally Posted by SoundGuyIHS

My house manager said she would not mind spending $2500 or so on sound stuff. I assume that the most money I would spend would be on a mic, so I might as well go for a good one, and not waste the money on something not worth while. $1200 is totally expensive, but it could be worth it, especially if the mic we get lasts for a long time.
In regards to preamps though... I hate to say I'm using the ones on our board (an allen and heath), but it's the truth. I guess I could use suggestions for that too.
My general idea was to put a couple mics through the board, take the signal from the board to an interface, and record two tracks (one left, one right) into Cubase or Sonar or something. Maybe I'll have Protools and an Mbox before the concert, maybe not, but regardless I have a Lexicon Lambda and a laptop with Sonar that I own myself.
After researching, it looks like the Oktavas are what I'll go for. Transducers Swe, I took a look at that link you sent me and it really sounds good. The mics sound amazing...can I ask what kind of preamp you used? Obviously that's the next logical step.
Also, if anybody has better ideas about my signal routing...Is it even worth running the signal through my board if I get a better preamp?(regardless of lexicon's quality verb and signal processing, their preamps leave much to be desired).
I know, lots of questions, but so far it's been really helpful to hear all of this advice.

-SoundGuyIHS

i would look for a pair of AKG 414s they are about as flat and neutral as you will find in a mid level price range, the switchable polar patterns will mean you can experiment with different micing techniques and and they a have a good output that will be usable through any pre.

spend the rest of your money on a recorder and/or acoustic treatment. a good pair of headphones is any important for you personally.

The A&H pres do fine when using a condenser with a good output. just take your signal from the direct outs, and dont engage any EQ. the recordings arnt going to be critical enough to warrant an external pre nor do you have the budget.

btw $1200 isnt that expensive for a pair of mics, we arnt talking DPAs here

Originally Posted by SoundGuyIHS

Regarding the Oktavas on SoundRoom, I should go for the cardiod, right?

it depends on what technique you want to use, Omni are the most use for orchestral work

one important question you have to answer before you can decide anything is what is the room like? aswell as how much space you will have for mics. generally if its a good room then a pair of spaced omnis will likely be your best bet, if its a not so good room then you should look at Blumlein or MS

[Shadow_7]

I guess one should ask, what is currently being used. And for what purpose are the recordings to be used? I have an AT4033a LDC (really kind of an MDC). And it does alright. I'm really wanting/needing a stereo pair. And for me the AT3033a seems to be week in the baritone voice. Probably just that mic or my chain. Alto + Bass is strong, Baritone + Soprano is not as strong. Plenty of detail, room or otherwise. But just off for the balance/EQ that I like, and otherwise know that the group is achieving.

At the moment, I'm using a couple electret mini mics. Omni in a stereo configuration. And I'm much happier with the results from an EQ perspective. I still think there's a bit more detail in the condensor. But it's a lot nicer to hear me in the mix being a Baritone. Instead of wondering if I was even there.

Basically I'm happier with my $55 stereo pair plus $60 battery box than I am with a single $400 mic with all of the corresponding cables and hardware. Which doesn't mean that I don't long for a stereo pair of sE Titans, or Cascade Fatheads. But I'm happy enough with the status quo to not want to invest in one of those options, yet.

My two current options: Laptop + M-Audio Mobile Pre + AT4033a ---or--- Laptop + M-Audio Mobile Pre + Battery Box + Giant Squid Omni Stereo mics. Technically I can drop the Mobile Pre from the mini mics. But my laptops onboard sound only records in mono. And without the batterybox that mono sounds horrid. One other side note, the AT4033a option has me at 2 on the dots for gain with Phantom power on. Out of 27 dots. The electret one at about 7 with Phantom power off. For a loud brass ensemble in close proximity.

Personally I long for a pair of ribbon mics. But for practical purposes that doesn't suit my needs since I'll be outdoors a fair percentage of the time. But that's just me.

[chris319]

spend the rest of your money on a recorder and/or acoustic treatment

Treatment??? Yeah, that's fine advice for a home studio, but this is a high school we're talking about. When I went to school, administrators took a decidedly dim view of students going around putting up acoustical treatment on the walls.

$1200 isnt that expensive for a pair of mics

It depends whose money you're spending. We've whittled that figure way down as six capsules for two mics would be overkill, considering he's not outfitting a commercial studio to service clients.

Omni are the most use for orchestral work

Again, I wouldn't recommend omnis unless I knew a) that the room acoustics are satisfactory, and b) that there won't be a LIVE AUDIENCE. If those two conditions aren't met, the safe bet would be to go with directional mics. If he has money to burn he could get two capsules for each mic -- a cardioid and a hypercardioid. They do sell the capsules separately: Oktava MK012 Capsules

[Transducers Swe]

Originally Posted by big country

Binaural recording - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jecklin Disk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

the image is just as important as the quality of the Mic's

XY an ORTF don't impress me much for stereo image

Binaural recordings gives a very vivid stereo image, but it does not sound realistic. Same goes for Jecklin disc. I tried both numerous times (also on symphony orchestra). The guys at Sterling Grammophone (Sterling: News | Sterling Records) mainly using jecklin disc and support mics for the strings. Sound stage is really strange. I used to own a THE BS-3D binaural sphere adn this always sounded nice, but not correct.

[aussie_techie]

Originally Posted by chris319

Treatment??? Yeah, that's fine advice for a home studio, but this is a high school we're talking about. When I went to school, administrators took a decidedly dim view of students going around putting up acoustical treatment on the walls.

when i went to school no student would of been allowed to spend $2500 on the schools money, this school obviously has different priorities so how can we say what would or wouldnt be able to be done. that said the school i went to does now a treated recording room. the problem is to be able to get the right advice so they dont buy the wrong things.

Originally Posted by chris319

It depends whose money you're spending. We've whittled that figure way down as six capsules for two mics would be overkill, considering he's not outfitting a commercial studio to service clients.

as a school focus is education and the lesson of polar patterns is a valuable one to tech why wouldnt there be a benefit to having the extra caps. how is a student going to know what will work unless they try it. my original point is that cost are relative and compared to dropping the cash on a pair of DPAs or any other high end mic this isnt a huge budget. that said i dont think oktavas would be neutral enough for an orchestra anyway unless you want to try and fix the sound later on.

Originally Posted by chris319

Again, I wouldn't recommend omnis unless I knew a) that the room acoustics are satisfactory, and b) that there won't be a LIVE AUDIENCE. If those two conditions aren't met, the safe bet would be to go with directional mics. If he has money to burn he could get two capsules for each mic -- a cardioid and a hypercardioid. They do sell the capsules separately: Oktava MK012 Capsules

maybe you should read the rest of what i said and we should all be waiting untill the OP can say what the room is like before we jump to conclusions. anyway why would a live audience matter? havnt you ever rerecorded a live concert before as there usually is an audience . beyond that what good is a hyper cardioid going to be if he is only using a single pair, main reason to use a hyper with an orchestra would be if you are using the chandos method which we all know is out of the question here.

[chris319]

we should all be waiting untill the OP can say what the room is like

Do you realistically expect him to come back and say that his orchestra will be performing in a well-treated, acoustically excellent auditorium? This is a high school we're talking about, not Juilliard or Berklee.

[SoundGuyIHS]

Unfortunately, Chris is completely correct. The auditorium acoustics are terrible. Imagine adding tons and tons of verb to a really noisey recording...that's what this auditorium is like.

[aussie_techie]

i dont expect anything but i know enough not to assume either. their are plenty of schools around with a decent performance space and its naive to assume otherwise.