Mics for Youth Orchestra

[chris319]

Originally Posted by mohthom

Well Chris, if it's a toss up between the TLM103s and the Behringer XM8500s, I'd save yourself some cash if you can't hear the difference!

MohThoM

I can hear the difference, you can hear the difference, SoundGuyIHS can hear the difference, Condoleeza Rice can hear the difference, even Beethoven -- well, he can't hear anything. The XM8500s were taken off the table when it was learned that they are looking for a $2,500 solution and not a $20 solution AND that they already own three AT SDCs, if you've been paying attention as I'm sure you have been.

[mohthom]

I don't record contemporary music in any lower quality than orchestral (classical) music. The composers I work with wouldn't stand for it!

What 'compromises' do you make *just* for contemporary music? I don't really get what you mean. I tend not to make compromises in either classical or contemporary music recordings if I can help it (or in any recording, in fact) - I don't see that I need to most of the time. My job is to capture sound - not make compromises!

MohThoM

[0VU]

Originally Posted by mohthom

I don't record contemporary music in any lower quality than orchestral (classical) music. The composers I work with wouldn't stand for it!

What 'compromises' do you make *just* for contemporary music? I don't really get what you mean. I tend not to make compromises in either classical or contemporary music recordings if I can help it (or in any recording, in fact) - I don't see that I need to most of the time. My job is to capture sound - not make compromises!

MohThoM

Curiously, I find all too often that recording classical music or any other is all about making and balancing compromises to achieve the best results possible in a given set of circumstances over which I don't have total control. It's the compromises one makes and how they are balanced that makes the difference. But that's just me. I'd love a no compromise world.

[mohthom]

Do you compromise for contemporary music more than you do for classical music?

[SoundGuyIHS]

I promise that the AT Pro 37-Rs are the best mics in my closet. If you really want to know, today I did a quick inventory. Here is what I have---
-------------------
3 X Shure SM 58
1 X Shure PG 58
2 X EV Hanging Condenser Cics (I don't remember the exact model)
2 X AKG 1000E Dynamic Mics (Really old, I think)
1 X Shure VP88 Stereo Condenser Mic (I could use this too, no?)
3 X EV Dynamic Handheld Mics (I don't remember the exact model)
-------------------------------------
That's pretty much my mic closet. Don't forget I also own an AT 2020 myself. I also have my own Pro 37-R (I liked the ones at school so much, I decided to get one).

Any mics in that list that are Neumann quality...(I think not )

I know that the VP88 is probably pretty good, and I intend to use it to mic the live pit orchestra for the spring musical, along with the AT 37-R's. Anyway, I would definitley like to hear some samples of the other mics mentioned. Here's my email:
SoundGuyIHS@yahoo.com

Give me a link or something so I can hear what you guys are talking about. I promise I won't judge anything until I actually hear it

[studio1117]

While the VP88 is a great little mic for the money and has it's place. It's really not suited for Choir or symphony type recordings. The mic just can't take the SPL. It breaks up. The specs say different but I always seem to get a bit of distortion.

[aussie_techie]

Originally Posted by mohthom

I don't record contemporary music in any lower quality than orchestral (classical) music. The composers I work with wouldn't stand for it!

What 'compromises' do you make *just* for contemporary music? I don't really get what you mean. I tend not to make compromises in either classical or contemporary music recordings if I can help it (or in any recording, in fact) - I don't see that I need to most of the time. My job is to capture sound - not make compromises!

MohThoM

ill have anther go at explaining what i meant now that i have had some sleep.

if you get a song to mix and some of tracks are recorded badly you an still mix the song to make the track work in the context of the song. say you get a badly recorded guitar track, you might do some drastic processing with eq, fx or anything else, the track might still not be very good on its own but it can work great within the song. if all you have is a stereo pair and something wasnt right then there isnt much to can do to fix it, so you have to get it right from the start. this is more of a difference with recording techniques rather than classical/compempory music but they can go together as you wouldnt recording a contemporary band with a single pair.

im not saying anyone would choose to compromise any recording but for any number of reasons it happens, so we cant deny it happens. we just have to deice when the compromises can be worked around and when there is no room to do so.

hopefully it makes more sense now.

0VU, finding the right balance (or compromising on balance) is more of how we intemperate the music and the instrument(s) and thus decide what the correct sound should be. as we get into bigger setups this adds to the debate of a using a simple pair/array or to spot mic each section. who is to say what the correct balance is?
well thats how i see it anyway, but let not get into bigger setups here.

[chris319]

During a rehearsal, conduct your own shootout. Take your pair of AT Pro 37-Rs and set them up in the stereo configuration of your choice. Record about a minute of the orchestra playing. Repeat the process with the VP88 and any other mics of which you own two or more, even the SM58s just for kicks. Play each recording back for yourself, your conductor and the rest of the orchestra members and ask yourself "Do I like the way it sounds?" If you like the way one of them sounds then you're all set. If not, then consider other options. Simple enough?

Before you do this, be sure to test all of your mics and all of your cables to make sure everything works and that there are no mysterious hums or buzzes.

[TonyF]

I bought a pair of NT6 Rodes with spare omni capsules because my Schoeps CCM's were faulty and having problems with noise in circumstances where the temperature and humidity were unstable. They had been back a while at Schoeps for repair/service.

We do a lot of recording of public concerts these days (the session scene for orchestral is very slow here in the UK) and I need a rig which looks very neat and tidy so as not to annoy the ticket-buying public too much and especially if we are providing sound for a video production. Usually I put four Schoeps CCMs on a wide Sabra-Som bar - 2 x CCM2H on the outside, 2 x CCM21 on the inside. This bar goes on the top of an Ambient carbon-fibre boom behind the conductor. When the Schoeps started playing up I started using Neumann KM130 capsules with extension leads for the outside omnis and KM143 capsules on the inside. Being old fashioned I was not happy having no backups and bought the Rodes as backups. When I tried the Rode omnis I was very pleasantly surprised how good they sounded.

When the Schoeps CCM2H's came back from Schoeps I set them up in parallel adjacent to Rode NT6 omnis, recorded them both on to our SADiE LRX to listen later. When I looked at the recordings on the SADiE CEDAR Retouch screen I could see the low end was more extended with the Rodes, and looked more like the spectrum I get from our old valve Neumann M50's. Phantom mics always need some kind of lf rolloff, and so do mic pre's generally, it is in the nature of things. In my experience, keeping the low end open as far as sensibly possible gives a recording more transparency as well as more weight.

My main point is that stereotyping mic types and brands is dangerous, especially if one's evidence is primarily anecdotal. Big words, but what I mean is that just because Rode mics are relatively cheap and not made in Germany or Denmark does not automatically make them unworthy of respect. I have recommended Rodes for years to educational organisations and to serious amateur recordists squeezed for budget, and I had tried them on several occasions to make sure I was not making a fool of myself. However when I have flight-cases of other more familiar mics I never used Rodes in anger on any major projects. This was my mistake, because they are actually very good and given the choice of a 2nd hand EBay KM83 or a Rode NT55, I would go for the new Rode.

When I first started out a long time ago I bought two cardioid pencil capacitor mics from a company called Calrec in Yorkshire. Colleagues told me what a fool I was because I should have bought AKG or Neumann because they were more famous and the BBC, Decca and EMI used them. None of the people who told me not to buy Calrec had ever tried one - they just thought they must be crap because they were made in England and did not cost as much as a motorbike. How wrong they were, and I think Rode deserves the same benefit of the doubt. My wife and I like drinking wine every so often, and we love French wines - but that does not stop us trying and enjoying Stone Creek Sauvignon Blanc from New Zealand and great wines from all over the place including Perth.

Moving to the cardioids: all small capsule cardioids have generic sonic thumbprint weaknesses whether they are made in Germany, Austria, Australia or Timbuktoo. Bass roll-off, high-frequency resonance from the capsule, often some kind of hf shelf to give 'presence'. Each manufacturer has his own alchemy to try to make the best of a bad job and for me Rode's solution is just as credible as a KM140, KM184 or Schoeps CMC64. The thing about a Rode NT55 is that it comes with an omni capsule as well as a cardioid and it is around half the price or less even ignoring the free capsule.

Give them a shot. You can always keep them as backups or for talkback or percussion if you hate them. The Rode valve mics are very well made too, but I have been frightened to compare them with my vintage models too closely in case I like them too. They don't do a valve single capsule omni yet (i.e. like an M50 or KM53) so I am still safe from them threatening my M50's as favourite mic for big orchestras and grand piano.

[mljung]

Originally Posted by TonyF

My main point is that stereotyping mic types and brands is dangerous, especially if one's evidence is primarily anecdotal.

thumbsup For me it's allways refreshing to hear professional users have good results using other than the usual suspects [schoeps, neumann, dpa etc].
Many expensive microphones sounds good, but all has a certain character. Some raves about Sennheiser MKH microphones other people think they have a somewhat filtered sound. Some raves about Schoeps other believe they have an unnatural sound.
So when people, such as TonyF by personal experience can tell you good things about some of the brands that other people don't take seriously, it's a good thing..!! Good for the debate..!!
I have microphones from Gefell, Oktava[Mod], DPA, Milab, Avantone, Neumann, Beyer, Røde and Sennheiser etc. All of these has their pros and cons.

[mohthom]

Aussie_techie, I think we must be talking at cross-purposes. When I speak of contemporary music I speak of contemporary 'classical' music (music of the Western art-music tradition) - not of contemporary (in the strictest sense of the word, 'today's') popular music.

MohThoM

[JEGG]

Originally Posted by chris319

$1,000 for a pair of mics is all well and fine, but keep in mind that this is a high school. It is not the ORTF, the BBC or Radio Nederland and doesn't aim to be.

It may not be the ORTF, or the BBC, or Radio Nederland, and it may be a high school

but, friends

this is Ithaca, NY! Not too much of anything is average there, they get plenty of exposure to the afore mentioned international radio services, and the public radio community-which includes Syracuse, NY-has (or did when I was around) some very good and committed engineers.

It it makes you feel better or worse, Ithaca has the highest property taxes in the US-but they actually put it all to very good use.

I wouldn't make too many assumptions about a high school in Ithaca.

[chaaster]

I have learned a lot reading these posts and I am in a similar situation as the student except I am the high school teacher who might have $2500.00 to spend on mics in addition to money for a pre-amp. We have money from concert revenue for a Millenia HV-3C, which I have read is one of the best pre-amps for recording large groups - in my case mostly wind ensembles and choirs. I, too wanted a pair of DPA 4006 because that is similar to what Fredrick Fennell and the Tokyo Kosei used as their main pair, but that is out of reach for our budget. We sell our cds to students and parents.
I am looking for mics that I can not only use in our 525 seat auditorium, but also in my band room everyday, which is only 42' x 30'. I record to a Yamaha AW 16G hard disk recorder.

My questions is, what about the following?

Royer SF-12

Peluso Stereo kits with cardiod and omni capsules

THE mics

There are so many choices these days it is virtually impossible to choose without trying. My worry about buying a mic like the Royer is that then it is limited to only being able to do one thing. If I buy mics with interchangeable capsules, they seem more versatile and I can experiment with different omni and cardiod setups. The biggest thing I am learning is that gear is one thing and knowing where to place it is another.

BTW, didn't Ithica High School have a great reputation for music thanks to Frank Battisti?

Thanks for all the information.

Chris

[jpalsu]

Transducers Swe you wrote :"I made some recordings of piano and violin using Oktava MK012 cardioids in ORTF setup. These were subsequently broadcast by the Swedish Radio. I have used this setup for string quartet too. I also have some recordings of a chamber orchestra that I made with spaced omni. Drop me your e-mail address and I'll send you the recordings for comparison."

Can you send me these recordings for comparison ?
Thanks

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

Rode NT4 is a reliable, low cost, and easy to use stereo small condenser mic. I use frequently for applications like this.

yeah, and in my experience, and in my opinion....it is a cheap, harsh awful sounding mic.

YMMV

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by mixerguy

yeah, and in my experience, and in my opinion....it is a cheap, harsh awful sounding mic.

YMMV

I think the idea is to offer mic suggestions to help SoundGuy. Got any?

[matt thomas]

Originally Posted by Randall

Grab a pair of the Blue Omnimouses from Full compass @ 595 each (marked down from 1300) .. away you go

this is the best option, don't even consider rodes or anything similar if you can get these at this price

get three of them if you want to do a decca tree

edit: whoops, sold out.

narco