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New JAZZ TRIO recording MP3 sample
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davy
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#1
27th January 2008
Old 27th January 2008
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Smile New JAZZ TRIO recording MP3 sample

I just finished a new recording of a young jazz trio in Belgium.

They are invited for a radio show on Belgian national radio KLARA (classical/jazz) by Jef Neve (also a jazz pianist).

In a hurry they arranged a large room (w:12m, L: 18m, H: 6m) in a music school with a descent piano and called me if I could make the recording.

Please feel free to give your opinion on this recording.

The recording setup:

PIANO: Royer R121 XY (blumlein)

BASS: AKG C414 LTD (hyper cardioid, 6dB/octave bass roll-off 160Hz to minimize proximity effect)

DRUMS:
---> OH: Neumann KM184 (AB, next time I will go for an coincident pair e.g. XY)
---> Snare: Neumann KM184
---> Kick: Neumann M147 (front of kick, almost not used in the mix)

ROOM: Neumann KM183 (AB on stereo bar, spacing 40cm, 10 meter from the stage, time corrected, placed low in the mix)

Here is a track of a few samples.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attac...vy-rogiest.mp3
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27th January 2008
Old 27th January 2008
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I like it...

The space sounds nice with plenty of air and tone.
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27th January 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remoteness View Post
I like it...

The space sounds nice with plenty of air and tone.
Thanks Steve, I am glad you like it, I really appreciate a comment from someone like you with an amazing experience in making acoustic recordings.

So now I can be more confident about this recording if it will sound good enough during broadcasting on Belgian radio.

Greets,
Davy
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27th January 2008
Old 27th January 2008
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From a musician's point of view, I really like how the instruments are being captured. Its a very musical sound in a great balance. Way to go!!
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27th January 2008
Old 27th January 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davy View Post
Thanks Steve, I am glad you like it, I really appreciate a comment from someone like you with an amazing experience in making acoustic recordings.

So now I can be more confident about this recording if it will sound good enough during broadcasting on Belgian radio.

Greets,
Davy
It's my pleasure.
Will you get a chance to listen to the radio broadcast?
Are you planning to record the show so you can hear what the broadcast limiters are doing to your mix?
I believe this will help you with the next broadcast mix you do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by smarsland View Post
From a musician's point of view, I really like how the instruments are being captured. Its a very musical sound in a great balance. Way to go!!
That's how I felt about it.
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27th January 2008
Old 27th January 2008
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Wow! You are where I would like to be. Yes, it is recorded so very well with the feeling of space and intimacy together. First rate. Good music, too. Chapeau!
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27th January 2008
Old 27th January 2008
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Overall nice musical balance and "space." I'd like to hear a bit more substance to the bass sound (and the instrument could be tuned better!). The whole recording sounds bright to me as if EQ was over-used in the mix.

Not bad, though!
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davy
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27th January 2008
Old 27th January 2008
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Originally Posted by MBishopSFX View Post
Overall nice musical balance and "space." I'd like to hear a bit more substance to the bass sound (and the instrument could be tuned better!). The whole recording sounds bright to me as if EQ was over-used in the mix.

Not bad, though!
Hi Michael,

For my taste also, the cymbals are on the bright side.
The KM184 are definitely not dull sounding microphones.
I placed the overhead pair at least more than 1m over the drums. In de mix I actually took some high frequencies out.
Could you give me some advise for a less bright jazz cymbal sound?
(ribbon mics, schoeps MK4, different placement, ...??)

Regards,
Davy
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27th January 2008
Old 27th January 2008
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Originally Posted by Remoteness View Post
Will you get a chance to listen to the radio broadcast?
Are you planning to record the show so you can hear what the broadcast limiters are doing to your mix?
Hi Steve,

How do I need to record the radio show?
If I have the URL of the radio stream and listen to it true iTunes, is there a posibility to record it?
I never tried this before.

Thanks!
Davy
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28th January 2008
Old 28th January 2008
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Sounds okay to me. It does feel a bit mono however, doesn't it? It seems to me as if the drums and piano are in both channels equally. I'd like to hear a bit more imaging.
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28th January 2008
Old 28th January 2008
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Originally Posted by ajfarber View Post
Sounds okay to me. It does feel a bit mono however, doesn't it? It seems to me as if the drums and piano are in both channels equally. I'd like to hear a bit more imaging.
Hello Andy,

I think that this is because of the leakage from one to the other microphone.
The musicians where standing close to each other. I asked them to make an arrangement so there would be more distance between the instruments, but they had problems with hearing the bass.

The piano is NOT fully hard left / right panned, neither the drums OH, so I guess the leakage is the cause of the imaging problem.? (any advise is more than welcome)

Is it a good alternative to give them the next time a headphone mix, place acoustic panels between the instruments and locate them further away to increase separation and hopefully achieve a better clear image?

Best regards,
Davy
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28th January 2008
Old 28th January 2008
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It sounds nice and airy - I don't think cymbals are bright - you know how they sound when you stand just a few meters from the drumkit - this is quite realistic...

I think the problem (a little too "edgy" and roomy) with the drum sound is that you used only condenser mics - you can impart some more warmth and body with combining good condeser overheads with some dynamic or ribbon mics... Esp. snare could use some dynamics to give you more attack and wood & skin of the snare - while the overheads would supply the realistic 3D picture - I guess also bleed from the cymbals in condenser mics is more obvious and difficult to manage than in let's say SM57 on snare

Two general remarks - there is almost no kick drum and double bass needs more low bass...

Also - why did you have to time align the room mics? Didn't it sound right when it was not aligned? I always leave the room mics as they were - room information comes delayed as in real life and the direct signal doesn't get washed over with ambience... Just my theory... I mean - experience...
I also prefer MS, ORTF / NOS set-up for room. I never do the AB - but I have no argument why not right now.

The general mood is very realistic - but maybe it could be more connected - now they are really each in its own department.

I would do that next time if I were in your shoes:

- use some additional dynamics or ribbons with drums - kick and snare - I sometimes even do the toms for extra attack and skin - but put them low in the mix...
Maybe achieve more intimate piano sound with something different then blumlein that is quite airy and also picks up much bleed from other instruments... I would maybe suggest blumlein for ambience - or blumlein stereo only / above the band and a little closer than 10m for the minimalist approach to recording - this could work wonders... (one hint: Waterlily records)

Bass - I don't know - maybe for some more subs use additional DI signal and low-pass it in the mix... I don't know - now it is not so round as it could be... but double bass is always PITA.. You could maybe risk additional bleed and not mic it so close - to capture more realistic and round tone and you wouldn't need no bass roll off while recording...

If you would have more direct sound of the drums (now they are quite roomy already) I would suggest to use more of the room mics in the mix - you would get more depth of the picture and maybe the musicians would sound more together and not so separate as now..
To achieve more body of the drums I usually compress the dynamic snare and kick mics - so I avoid getting such roomy drums and I can add more ambience mics to complement the whole picture while still not "overwashing" the drums...

Hope some of those observations help.
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28th January 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Listener View Post
It sounds nice and airy - I don't think cymbals are bright - you know how they sound when you stand just a few meters from the drumkit - this is quite realistic...

I think the problem (a little too "edgy" and roomy) with the drum sound is that you used only condenser mics - you can impart some more warmth and body with combining good condeser overheads with some dynamic or ribbon mics... Esp. snare could use some dynamics to give you more attack and wood & skin of the snare - while the overheads would supply the realistic 3D picture - I guess also bleed from the cymbals in condenser mics is more obvious and difficult to manage than in let's say SM57 on snare

Also - why did you have to time align the room mics? Didn't it sound right when it was not aligned? I always leave the room mics as they were - room information comes delayed as in real life and the direct signal doesn't get washed over with ambience... Just my theory... I mean - experience...
I also prefer MS, ORTF / NOS set-up for room. I never do the AB - but I have no argument why not right now.

The general mood is very realistic - but maybe it could be more connected - now they are really each in its own department.

I would do that next time if I were in your shoes:

- use some additional dynamics or ribbons with drums - kick and snare - I sometimes even do the toms for extra attack and skin - but put them low in the mix...
Maybe achieve more intimate piano sound with something different then blumlein that is quite airy and also picks up much bleed from other instruments... I would maybe suggest blumlein for ambience - or blumlein stereo only / above the band and a little closer than 10m for the minimalist approach to recording - this could work wonders... (one hint: Waterlily records)

Bass - I don't know - maybe for some more subs use additional DI signal and low-pass it in the mix... I don't know - now it is not so round as it could be... but double bass is always PITA..

If you would have more direct sound of the drums (now they are quite roomy already) I would suggest to use more of the room mics in the mix - you would get more depth of the picture and maybe the musicians would sound more together and not so separate as now..
To achieve more body of the drums I usually compress the dynamic snare and kick mics - so I avoid getting such roomy drums and I can add more ambience mics to complement the whole picture while still not "overwashing" the drums...

Hope some of those observations help.
Thx, I will take your advise into consideration next time I record an acoustic jazz band.

Best,
Davy
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28th January 2008
Old 28th January 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davy View Post
Hello Andy,

I think that this is because of the leakage from one to the other microphone.
The musicians where standing close to each other. I asked them to make an arrangement so there would be more distance between the instruments, but they had problems with hearing the bass.

The piano is NOT fully hard left / right panned, neither the drums OH, so I guess the leakage is the cause of the imaging problem.? (any advise is more than welcome)

Is it a good alternative to give them the next time a headphone mix, place acoustic panels between the instruments and locate them further away to increase separation and hopefully achieve a better clear image?

Best regards,
Davy
Let it bleed! Leakage is natural- isolation is alien to live music. Having musicians close to each other not only helps them play tighter and hear better, but it lets you avoid destructive phase/delay problems when combining channels. I hear plenty of stereo separation. In reference to the above poster who wants more bass drum, if a channel/track is available, an omni inside the drum with good LF extension like EV RE-55 or an sdc omni might add options while mixing. Not complaining for me, balance seems fine.

Cheers.
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28th January 2008
Old 28th January 2008
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I think it is quite nice.

I also agree drums are a bit too roomy, esp. snare sounds more distant than it needs. I can't hear excessive brightness on drums, but I miss some more body in the mids.

But what I don't like is the stereo image, somehow it is a bit confusing, nothing like a band infront of me, more like all the player perspectives put over themselfs panned a bit to the sides. Don't know if it is a good description, but I can't think of anything more fitting now.
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29th January 2008
Old 29th January 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davy View Post
Hello Andy,

I think that this is because of the leakage from one to the other microphone.
The musicians where standing close to each other. I asked them to make an arrangement so there would be more distance between the instruments, but they had problems with hearing the bass.

The piano is NOT fully hard left / right panned, neither the drums OH, so I guess the leakage is the cause of the imaging problem.? (any advise is more than welcome)

Is it a good alternative to give them the next time a headphone mix, place acoustic panels between the instruments and locate them further away to increase separation and hopefully achieve a better clear image?

Best regards,
Davy
No advice because it's not a problem. If that's how it sounded in the room, that's how it should be. I suppose you could try to pan the drums a bit more right and the opposite for piano, but if there are phase issues, don't bother.

I would not recommend headphones. Keep them close together and let them play like a gig. The performance is way more important than isolation and imaging.
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