Live vocal through guitar pedal setup question

[Polymerben]

I have an interesting set up and thought someone on here might be able to help. I am a vocalist and I have 4 pedals and a DI Box on my board. I'm trying to make my setup as noiseless and simple to use as possible. I get some complaints from live sound engineers, possibly because they're not used to vocalists using foot pedals and possibly because elements of my chain are not good quality. Here is how it looks:

SM58-->mic/line converter-->Mutron Phaser-->Voodoo Labs Tremolo-->Line 6 Echo Park Delay-->Trex Replica Delay--> Behringer ULTRA-DI Box--> Mixing board.

The Mutron makes any pedal that comes immediately after it in the chain , pop or click when I step on that pedal (in this case the Voodoo Labs Trem Pedal). I was wondering if bypass loop would solve that problem because the Mutron sounds amazing but is currently useless if I can't put it into a signal chain without it making excess noise itself or causing the pedal immediately after it to make noise. The Mutron also comes with a 2-pronged plug and some of the noise I'm getting may be from the lack of ground.

I am concerned as well that the Behringer Ultra DI box I use to return the line level back to mic level might be low quality and creates problems for the mixing engineer.

Does anyone have any suggestions that could solve these issues? Is there anther setup that might make more sense than this to ensure the engineer is getting the proper signal strength?

[Kiwiburger]

Guitar pedals are designed for Instrument level - which is hotter than mic level, but not quite as hot as semi pro unbalanced -10 line level. Pro balanced +4 line level is hotter still.

You have a complex mix of a few different problems:

gainstaging - having to attenutate, and then make up with further gain means your signal to noise gets very poor
lack of true bypass - means you effects degrade your signal, even when they are not actually required
ground loops - unbalanced gear is begging for ground loop hum issues

In a perfect world, this is how I would tackle it:

Mic into a quality preamp with +4 line level output

Look into the Ebtech Hum Eliminator and Line Level Shifter Ebtech - Professional Audio Solutions

I only just found out about them, and i've ordered a couple from FrontEnd - I can't vouch for them yet, but they should solve some similar problems I have with intefacing unbalanced gear.

These are passive transformer boxes - so they give you some desirable isolation that should solve the ground loop. The Hum Eliminator is 1:1 - but the Line Level shifter converts -10 to +4. It should also work in reverse - and I suspect it might work as a stereo Reamp box too. (I have Reamp boxes, and I know these would also work).

Being stereo, you could probably use the Ebtech LLS like this: use one side to step the output of your mic preamp Line output down to Instrument level - then from your effects chain, use the other side to step the Instrument level back up to Line level. It would give you the balanced output that you need back to the desk.

It would replace your Behringer DI box - which I assume is lowering your effect output down to Mic level. That's going the wrong way in my opinion, and leading to unnecessary noise.

Now the seperate issue of true bypass: if your pedals don't have this, can you get them modded? Or - if you can't get them modded, consider custom making a pedal board with switches or relays to give you true bypass via external switching. It's very easy to do - someone with basic electronics understanding could build this for you.

[Malcolm Boyce]

Two things:

Originally Posted by Polymerben

SM58-->mic/line converter-->Mutron Phaser-->Voodoo Labs Tremolo-->Line 6 Echo Park Delay-->Trex Replica Delay--> Behringer ULTRA-DI Box--> Mixing board.

What is the "mic/line converter"? Is it actually boosting the level, or just changing to an unbalanced 1/4" to go into the pedals? If it isn't boosting the level up to a proper line level, the pedals will be a source of noise and other fun things to degrade the quality of the signal.

Secondly, have you looked at any of the dedicated live vocal processors such as the Digitech products:

DigiTech® Vocalist Products

The DI is the least of the problems with this setup. Even with both pads in place, it wouldn't be supressing the signal level to an unusable level if the level coming in were a proper "instrument" level. By what you describe, I bet you aren't boosting the mic level before entering the pedal system that is looking for a line level to process.

[Kiwiburger]

Yeah - I wonder about that too - I assumed that at least one of the sound engineers would have told him if he was doing something that stupid ...

First thing has to be a decent mic preamp, with line level output.

I believe transformer isolation will be a good safe option. You might get away without it, but why take the risk - especially if you aren't using the same mixing board every night.

Many stomp boxes are very sensitive to impedance and some inject stray voltages and give problems. I would consider 1:1 transformer isolation between any that are causing problems.

The DI box probably is the least of your problems. But I still think that having boosted your level from mic to line, down to instrument, it's a damn shame to drop it back down to mic level. That's why I would try to keep it at least at Instrument level, if not +4 line. As long as it's balanced. It means you need less gain at the board, which means less noise.

[Polymerben]

Hey guys, thanks for the responses.

Being stereo, you could probably use the Ebtech LLS like this: use one side to step the output of your mic preamp Line output down to Instrument level - then from your effects chain, use the other side to step the Instrument level back up to Line level. It would give you the balanced output that you need back to the desk.

I sent Ebtech an email to see if I could get a little more information about the Line Level Shifter.

In a perfect world, this is how I would tackle it:

Mic into a quality preamp with +4 line level output

A mic pre might not be practical on stage as the only place I could put it is on my pedal board and I wouldn't want to risk stomping on a several hundred dollar piece of equipment that is made to sit in a rack. Is there any other piece of gear that might be able to raise the level?

This is the converter I mentioned earlier that I have been using to go from the mic cable to the input of the pedal chain:

Shure - Accessories - A85F Line Matching Transformer

As I understand it, this transformer raises the input from mic to line level. If I am way off on this please feel free to set me straight. Assuming that this does raise the input level, does that negate the line level shifter?

Secondly, have you looked at any of the dedicated live vocal processors such as the Digitech products:

DigiTech® Vocalist Products

I have looked into vocal processors but have been turned off by most of the products I've come across just due to inadequate effects.


I appreciate the help!

[Meriphew]

How about something like this?

TC Helicon Create

Producer-in-a-pedal
If you're tired of the dull, dry vocal coming back at you onstage, you're ready for the VoiceTone Create pedal. Now you can have the same pro quality ambience and ear-catching effect types that producers use in the studio to make vocals sound sweet. At its simplest, Create is a high quality voice effects unit that you bring to performances to feel confident that your style of effects, whether it’s country, rock, metal, blues or jazz, is under your control.

Create features 99 preset combinations of reverb, delay, thickening/microtuning, distortion and telephone/megaphone effects that can inspire creativity and bring the sound of the CD to the stage. The straightforward controls, A/B effects switching and simple radio button preset selection give singers easy access to a rich palette of effects.

Features
TC-quality reverb and delay processing

Contemporary vocal distortion effects

Telephone and megaphone sounds

99 music-style-based effects combinations offer fast setup

Flexible A/B effects switching

5 "favorite" user presets

Quick and easy tweaking of patches

XLR mic level I/O in stereo or mono

Clean, studio quality mic preamp with phantom power

Tap tempo

Super Edit Mode
You might wonder how the developers and product managers at TC-Helicon authored patches for VoiceTone Create. Similar to methods used on other products, a special mode was created for setting advanced parameters. In and around the office, this mode in VoiceTone Create was called Super Edit Mode.

Super Edit Mode allows access to dozens of parameters per effect. These parameters are used to design any of the 99 patches in Create. While using this mode during final design we recognized it’s a powerful feature for an advanced or curious user.
Technical Info
Analog Inputs
Connectors: Balanced XLR
Input Impedance: 1 kOhm
Mic Input Sensitivity @ 0 dBFS: -44 dBu to +2 dBu
Mic Input Sensitivity @ 12 dB headroom: -56 dBu to -10 dBu
EIN: -128 dBu @ max. mic amp gain, Rg = 150 Ohm

Analog Outputs
Connectors: Balanced XLR
Output Impedance: 40 Ohm
Output Level @ 0dBFS: +2dBu

Input to Output Analog Audio Performance
Dynamic Range, Mic. @ Min gain: >108 dB, 20 Hz - 20 kHz (A-weighted)
Dynamic Range, Mic. @ -18dBu sensitivity: > 104dB, 20hz – 20kHz (A-weighted)
THD+ Noise, Mic. @ Min gain: <-90dB
Frequency Response, max gain: -1.5 dB @ 40 Hz, +0/-0.3 dB (200 Hz to 20 kHz)

Conversion Characteristics
Sample Rate: 48 kHz
Converter: AKM AK4620B
A to D / D to A Conversion: 24 bit, 128x oversampling bitstream
A to D Delay: 0.65 ms
D to A Delay: 0.63 ms
EMC: Complies with EN 55103-1 and EN 55103-2 FCC part 15, Class B, CISPR 22, Class B

Safety Certified to: IEC 65, EN 60065, UL6500 and CSA E60065 CSA FILE #LR108093

Environment
Operating Temperature: 32° F to 122° F (0° C to 50° C)
Storage Temperature: -22° F to 167° F (-30° C to 70° C)
Humidity: Max. 90% non-condensing

Supplementary
Dimensions (WxHxD): 130 x 41 x 132 mm (5 x 1.5 x 5.25 in.)
Weight: 1.5 lbs. (0.72 kg)
Warranty Parts and labor: 1 year

[Polymerben]

How about something like this?

TC Helicon Create

I took a look at this guy and functionally it seems ok. I would have to hear it to be convinced. The problem is that I use the TRex REplica Delay and the Mutron which are both boutique pedals that are hard to imitate for quality. Granted the sound quality may be a moot point if I'm degrading the signal....

Still curious if anyone can answer the question about the line transformer that I'm using. I have been under the impression that it boosts the signal to line level.


This was the response I got about the EBtech Line Level Shifter:

We don't make a solution for your issue. Sorry. I personally recommend a vocal effect unit instead of guitar pedals.
One that is made for vocals and mic connections.

Chad Montrose
Tech Support/Customer Service
847-639-4646x14
Mon- Fri 7am-3pm Central Standard Time

[RACKMAN]

I do this for a living my co. makes guitar rigs for the likes of Van Halen,Offspring etc. etc. etc. I have done some vocal pedal boards before ( I did one for Alice in Chains once) Please feel free to contact me about this. Racksystems@yahoo.com or call 818 209-4309. Dave Friedman

[Malcolm Boyce]

Originally Posted by Polymerben

This is the converter I mentioned earlier that I have been using to go from the mic cable to the input of the pedal chain:

Shure - Accessories - A85F Line Matching Transformer

That looks like it should be doing what you want it to do. The thing you need to remember is that these types of pedals were not built with what you are doing in mind, and listening to them through a PA at "lead vocal" level will be a revealing experience.

Originally Posted by Polymerben

...I use the TRex REplica Delay and the Mutron which are both boutique pedals that are hard to imitate for quality. Granted the sound quality may be a moot point if I'm degrading the signal....

An excellent point that needs to be kept in mind. Don't throw out what you have, but trying some of the other dedicated solutions to see what's available would be a good idea.

Another solution that may be impractical is a small mixer that would allow you to insert the FX in a more controlled way than plugging a mic into a pedal. I'm thinking something in a very small Mackie or similar.

If cost is no object, than yes, you can have someone build you a custom pedalboard.

[Kiwiburger]

I'm not sure what exactly you asked Ebtech - because very obviously they don't make mic preamps (which you need) and/or effects. They simply make hum eliminators and line level shifters - which I think you might benefit from AFTER you have got the right gear for the job.

That Shure transformer is for matching impedance. It will give a bit of a boost, but it's not going to replace a mic preamp. The problem with using a passive transformer for giving a voltage boost is that it reduces the current. Energy is neither created nor destroyed, so if you increase the volts, you lose amps. The mic preamp stage is the most critical stage in your signal's development. Damage it there, and it's scarred for life.

Mic preamps are about the most talked about thing around here - because they can make huge differences to the quality of everthing. For stage use, you maybe don't need high end - but there are plenty of useable mic preamps to choose from. Some, like the RNP, don't have balanced outputs and may not require conversion to drive guitar effects. I have doubts about that - but it might work for you. An M-Audio Audio Buddy or something might be ok.

I still think transformer isolation can solve problems interconnecting unbalanced gear - especially with that wierd problem you have experienced. Stomp pedal circuitry is often a little bit 'wrong' on purpose (especially distortion boxes), and they can have odd little quirks when interfacing with other gear.

I mentioned Ebtech because i've just orded some of their gear to try - so sorry for raising something I haven't yet tested. But the concepts of shifting line levels and matching impedance and isolation are all solid, and I would have thought this is at the heart of what you are trying to do. Surprises that Ebtech didn't mention this, but maybe you confused them.

Something I do own (two of) is a Reamp box from Reamp, by John Cuniberti. This is exactly designed for interfacing +4 balanced line level with guitar effects. This is assuming that you buy a mic preamp with +4 balanced line level output.

A Reamp box provides a lot of attenuation. It will certainly let you match a good preamp to your effects, with the benefits of transformer isolation.

[Jeff16years]

a good way to get the correct level into your pedal board is:

buy a Sennheiser wireless mic with the CAMERA MOUNT RECEIVER. thats right, they make a receiver that is intended for high end news type reporting. It is very small, very high quality and battery powered (perfect for mounting right onto a pedal board) the output of the receiver has many options +4/-10 and anywhere in that vicinity.

they make really good, high quality wireless handhelds that are available in cardioid dynamic (just like your sm58)

i use this for my guitar pedal board, it rocks.

[Jeff16years]

Originally Posted by Jeff16years

a good way to get the correct level into your pedal board is:

buy a Sennheiser wireless mic with the CAMERA MOUNT RECEIVER. thats right, they make a receiver that is intended for high end news type reporting. It is very small, very high quality and battery powered (perfect for mounting right onto a pedal board) the output of the receiver has many options +4/-10 and anywhere in that vicinity.

they make really good, high quality wireless handhelds that are available in cardioid dynamic (just like your sm58)

i use this for my guitar pedal board, it rocks.

i just found the unit I was talking about it's called the Sennheiser ew135pg2 for the cardioid dynamic

i'm sure you'll find it on a google search, probably around US $500

[juniorhifikit]

Originally Posted by RACKMAN

I do this for a living my co. makes guitar rigs for the likes of Van Halen,Offspring etc. etc. etc. I have done some vocal pedal boards before ( I did one for Alice in Chains once) Please feel free to contact me about this. Racksystems@yahoo.com or call 818 209-4309. Dave Friedman

God almighty has spoken!thumbsup

Go with what Dave says.

For my $.02, split the mic signal first with a good transformer. One leg goes clean to FOH while the other gets obliterated by your pedals (maybe into a small amp onstage or a DI). Kim Deal from the Breeders just used a separate mic...

[Meriphew]

[LX3]

You're already there aren't you? If the level from the DI box is too hot for the mic input on the desk then engage the pad on the DI.

Most DI boxes already drop line level down to mic level even with all the pads switched out (why do so many live techs always start with DI pads switched in? Forcing me to crank up my preamp gain, and making things noisier than they need to be.). The engineer just has to run the channel with the trim in the right place... He/she may have to turn it down a little from the usual position for a 58, but that's hardly difficult.

If that makes their brain hurt, switch the DI pad on.

[LX3]

Originally Posted by Kiwiburger

That Shure transformer is for matching impedance. It will give a bit of a boost, but it's not going to replace a mic preamp. The problem with using a passive transformer for giving a voltage boost is that it reduces the current. Energy is neither created nor destroyed, so if you increase the volts, you lose amps.

This is so... but guitar pickups are inherently high-impedance, so can't churn out much current either. I'd have thought that the plug-in transformer would do quite a good job of emulating a guitar output, which would suit a guitar stomp box. Although I don't know about level... Does a guitar seem a lot louder thru the pedals than the mic?

I'd agree that a proper mic preamp is a good idea (as is a splitter prior to the pedals for a clean feed).... With a mic pre you'll be able to adjust the level you send through the pedals, and more level = less noise. Just watch out for distortion in the pedals.

Check out the little MTR Gain Brain as a mic preamp perhaps - it's a simple (and cheap!) mic pre powered from a 9v battery or stompbox psu

But if it's working well with the AT transformer, then great.

[Polymerben]

But if it's working well with the AT transformer, then great.

The problem with using a passive transformer for giving a voltage boost is that it reduces the current.

The AT transformer seems to be helping quite a bit. It runs on a AA battery which I believe takes it out of the realm of "passive" but I'm assuming it's still no where near the appropriate level. Please correct me if that is wrong.

Another question I had is--should I replace the Behringer Ultra Active DI with a Radial Passive JDI? I have been doing research about the difference between the active and the passive DIs and it seems like the passive DIs lower the risk of any hum or coloration of the sound. From what I've read, An active Di is only necessary with lower level inputs and I wasn't sure if the the signal coming from the mic through all of these pedals was strong enough not to need the Active DI.

[LX3]

Originally Posted by Polymerben

The AT transformer seems to be helping quite a bit. It runs on a AA battery which I believe takes it out of the realm of "passive" but I'm assuming it's still no where near the appropriate level. Please correct me if that is wrong.

Who can say... it should provide some voltage gain, which is what you want. But how much?...

Plug an electric guitar into your pedals. Is the guitar way louder than the mic with the AT transformer? If so, a mic preamp is the answer.

Seriously, check out something like the MTR box. It's cheap, flexible, small, built a bit like a stomp box... It doesn't sound like you need to spend hundreds of dollars on a mic pre, especially if you're mangling it with guitar FX. Another alternative is the Sound Devices MP-1 which I expect would be awesome (but not cheap).

More level into the pedals will improve your signal to noise. Guitar pedals are notoriously noisy, and the more of them you have switched in at any time the more noise you'll get.

Obviously, you can't feed them so much level that the pedals start distorting (unless that's the intention).

Another question I had is--should I replace the Behringer Ultra Active DI with a Radial Passive JDI? I have been doing research about the difference between the active and the passive DIs and it seems like the passive DIs lower the risk of any hum or coloration of the sound. From what I've read, An active Di is only necessary with lower level inputs and I wasn't sure if the the signal coming from the mic through all of these pedals was strong enough not to need the Active DI.

I think the Behringer will be just fine, and very much doubt it's the source of your problems. It may not be the best DI on earth, but I have a couple and honestly, I haven't got any big complaints about them. It has a transformer-isolated output, so you shouldn't have any worries about hum. I tend to go for an active DI over a passive one most of the time. Passives tend to result in more of a level drop, and as you say, that becomes a bit of an issue with low-output devices. (they're fine with nice mains-powered, line-level instruments like keyboards).

Have you tried taking ALL the pedals out of circuit, and connecting your mic, via the AT, directly to the Behringer? How does that sound in the PA? If it sounds okay, the noise is all to do with your pedals (and may still be something to do with not enough level from the AT). If it sounds bad, I think you definitely need to change the AT.

The other thing to try is changing the SM58 for a Beta58, which has quite a bit more output (and tends to sound better in live situations IMO).

[LX3]

Another option, if you can still find one, is the ART MicroMix. Supposedly discontinued now, it's a small, cheap, mic preamp with phantom power (should you ever need it). Powered by 12v adaptor.

[Polymerben]

Thank you very much for all the help guys. I feel like I've learned a whole lot about this stuff.

Paul, I have already checked out the MTR and will check out the other preamps you mentioned as well.

Originally Posted by LX3

The other thing to try is changing the SM58 for a Beta58, which has quite a bit more output (and tends to sound better in live situations IMO).

<sheepish grin> I've thought about using the beta before but because I swing the mic around so much on stage, I opted against is as I understand the betas to be less durable than the SMs.

[LX3]

Originally Posted by Polymerben

I've thought about using the beta before but because I swing the mic around so much on stage, I opted against is as I understand the betas to be less durable than the SMs.

Not saying you're wrong, but it's the first time I've heard that. (The finish scratches a little more easily maybe!)

It's also possibly more expensive to repair a Beta 58...

But whatever you fling around stage is going to get bashed, so who's worried... Unless you upgrade to a KMS105! On a gig I virtually did as a favour, the sax player threw my KMS down the bell of his tenor, as if to say "Hey look at me, I'm a wild and crazy jazz artist."

I was a wild and crazy pi&&ed-off sound recordist that night.

[Polymerben]

Originally Posted by LX3

I was a wild and crazy pi&&ed-off sound recordist that night.

Haha The line between putting on a good show and keeping the engineers' happy is sometimes very thin-especially when you have a setup like mine. But I will never understand why a band would destroy the engineer's equipment and still expect them to run their sound. The respect I have for engineers is what led me to start asking questions about my setup-to make sure I can make it as easy as possible on them.

[ahjteam]

What about POD X3 Live? It has dual inputs so you can put your guitar AND your mic to it.

Line 6 - POD Family

[tradernate]

Originally Posted by Kiwiburger

Look into the Ebtech Hum Eliminator and Line Level Shifter Ebtech - Professional Audio Solutions

These are passive transformer boxes - so they give you some desirable isolation that should solve the ground loop. The Hum Eliminator is 1:1 - but the Line Level shifter converts -10 to +4. It should also work in reverse - and I suspect it might work as a stereo Reamp box too. (I have Reamp boxes, and I know these would also work).

Did you find out if these have the capability to convert from XLR to instrument jack as you go from -10 mic level to +4 instrument level? (there's also a good chance I don't understand the different levels correctly, so if I misuse them, could you set me straight?)

Originally Posted by Kiwiburger

Being stereo, you could probably use the Ebtech LLS like this: use one side to step the output of your mic preamp Line output down to Instrument level - then from your effects chain, use the other side to step the Instrument level back up to Line level. It would give you the balanced output that you need back to the desk.

Any idea now if one of these boxes can be used this way?

I've been trying to figure out a way to run my live vocals through a guitar pedal as well. This box seems like the best lead so far if it works the way you thought it might.

This is a pretty old thread, but I'm hoping you'll get this.

Thanks!

[aussie_techie]

Originally Posted by Polymerben

I've thought about using the beta before but because I swing the mic around so much on stage, I opted against is as I understand the betas to be less durable than the SMs.

betas have a stronger grill that you wont be able to mash in unless you are trying to hard so they are much more durable.

but it is only one factor if you choose a beta or an SM

the grills are interchangeable so you can but a beta grill on an SM

[finisherr]

I experience the same issue with live sound engineers. Can someone tell me what is wrong with this set up and what I can do to fix it?

-SM58s (we have two singers in my band) in to Channel 1 and Channel 2 on my Behringer XENYX 802 Mixer
-FX Send to my Holy Grail + Boss Digtal Delay 6, back to FX Return (on mixer)
-Out from Main Out to PA or to DI box --> PA

I keep all the levels at 12 o'clock since I'm mostly using the setup to punch in reverb or delay when necessary. I understand that this limits the engineer's ability to mix each vocal separately at the board, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to take if it means that I can have control of the effects at my feet.

With all that said, is there anything that I can do to avoid signal problems? I've heard talk about pre-amps but I was wondering how it could apply to my situation specifically considering that I use a mixer on stage. If so, where would it go in this chain?

Thanks.