Best accoustics for grand piano recording

Hans Hitmachine · 22nd June 2004, 04:12 PM

The spot where my grand piano (Blüthner 190cm) is standing in my room has a stone ceiling. The walls are either stone/curtain or covered with bookshelves (as diffuser). The other part of the room is a little dryer, I hung up some plates with foam on it on the ceiling. I use it for drums and other things that need a more focused and solid sound.
However, I wonder if I should do the same thing with the piano room. It's quite a high ceiling. some 4 meters, so it's not that the sound doesn't escape, like in a bathroom and bounces back and forth like crazy.
Is a room with more reflections desired for piano recordings or would you rather choose for a perfectly controlled sound?

Here's a picture of the room:

http://home.wanadoo.nl/peter.hannema...os/ruimte1.jpg

This is an old photograph. Now, the grand is standing where the little round table is in the picture, so the sound goes straight into the room.
The bookshelves are placed on the right wall (not in the picture).

Thanks

Ted Nightshade · 22nd June 2004, 10:53 PM

Actually 4m is not real high for acoustics purposes.... 8m would be more like it. Nothing that happens in that room will be "best", but you can still pull a pretty nice sound out of it with some experimentation and suitable microphones. Mic placement will be the big thing- listen carefully while someone else is playing, to where exactly the best spot is, put the mic exactly there. Fine tune as necessary. good luck!

genericperson · 23rd June 2004, 12:58 AM

there are many, many ways to record a piano.

but one i think is rather good is this:
you take the lid completely off the piano (literally unscrew it and store it somewhere).

then get some cardioids up nice and high and aim down at the piano. basically a birds-eye view on the sound. it's actually a pure sound if you think of how the tones radiate from the soundboard. they go straight up and down like a "dipole" speaker.

micing from the side of the piano like you are standing there is a sonic compromise. you are recording bounced sound off of the lid. it's not pure.

direct overhead is purist. you could even do a mid-side this way, but still, overhead with lid off, overhead with lid off.

so get some nice tall boom stands, and a step ladder. and did i mention overhead with lid off?

Dave Martin · 23rd June 2004, 05:13 AM

Generic, does it matter that no one ever listens to a piano from that position? And therefore, it may not sound like a piano to those listening to the recording? (Just paking an observation...)

Yannick · 23rd June 2004, 10:13 AM

Most of my recordings are piano solo or small chambermusic with piano - so I have quite a lot of experience.

1. a piano without the lid does not sound like a piano - no way. It sounds castrated, thin, harsh etc.
2. getting a good piano sound involves getting the right mic height, as this will change the balance between the reflected sound (off the lid) and direct sound (off the soundboard) and the reflected sound (off the soundboard via the floor). A good piano uses all three to get a great sound in the hall.
3. ignore point 1. if you're not recording in a big hall - it could actually be the right compromise in your room, especially because you'll have to try to compensate for the flaws through microphone technique/choice etc.

For me the best solution is moving your piano to here :

djui5 · 23rd June 2004, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yannick
For me the best solution is moving your piano to here :

That would be nice wouldn't it...

Ruphus · 23rd June 2004, 12:01 PM

Hey! That´s a great booth you got there. ... But how do you play on such a little piano?

Ruphus

Hans Hitmachine · 23rd June 2004, 05:54 PM

Drewling......
I tried removing the lid once but it didtn't do it for me. Thin sound. No good.

I removed my diffusers (bookshelves) and came to the conclusion that I like it the best with lots of reflection. Gives a large sound and bass boost. The room is 8 meters in lenght, so maybe that matters too.

The instrument is great, typical bell-like Bluethner sound. But I think I'm using the wrong microphones. cardioid Gefell's outside the lid in ofrt . Sounds quite thin.
I'm thinking of either B&K-like omnis or a pair of ribbons.
Purity is not my main goal. I want a big piano sound (but without close miking).

Thanks everyone!

Magnus · 1st July 2004, 05:11 PM

I think that dynamic mics can sound really good on piano. Try it and see if it works for you.

Regards,
Magnus

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22nd June 2004, 04:12 PM	#1
Hans Hitmachine Gear maniac Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 204	Best accoustics for grand piano recording The spot where my grand piano (Blüthner 190cm) is standing in my room has a stone ceiling. The walls are either stone/curtain or covered with bookshelves (as diffuser). The other part of the room is a little dryer, I hung up some plates with foam on it on the ceiling. I use it for drums and other things that need a more focused and solid sound. However, I wonder if I should do the same thing with the piano room. It's quite a high ceiling. some 4 meters, so it's not that the sound doesn't escape, like in a bathroom and bounces back and forth like crazy. Is a room with more reflections desired for piano recordings or would you rather choose for a perfectly controlled sound? Here's a picture of the room: http://home.wanadoo.nl/peter.hannema...os/ruimte1.jpg This is an old photograph. Now, the grand is standing where the little round table is in the picture, so the sound goes straight into the room. The bookshelves are placed on the right wall (not in the picture). Thanks __________________ Our day's work over Tim, Rawlins and I decided to sharp up for the big night. We went across town to the rooming house where the opera stars were living. Across the night we heard the beginning of the evening performance. "Just right" said Rawlins. "Latch on to some of these razors and towels and we'll spruce up a bit".

23rd June 2004, 05:13 AM	#4
Dave Martin Moderator emeritus Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 3,165	Generic, does it matter that no one ever listens to a piano from that position? And therefore, it may not sound like a piano to those listening to the recording? (Just paking an observation...) __________________ Dave Martin Java Jive Studio www.javajivestudio.com Cuppa Joe Records www.cuppajoerecords.com Nashville, TN

23rd June 2004, 10:13 AM	#5
Yannick Gear addict Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Brussels Posts: 406	Most of my recordings are piano solo or small chambermusic with piano - so I have quite a lot of experience. 1. a piano without the lid does not sound like a piano - no way. It sounds castrated, thin, harsh etc. 2. getting a good piano sound involves getting the right mic height, as this will change the balance between the reflected sound (off the lid) and direct sound (off the soundboard) and the reflected sound (off the soundboard via the floor). A good piano uses all three to get a great sound in the hall. 3. ignore point 1. if you're not recording in a big hall - it could actually be the right compromise in your room, especially because you'll have to try to compensate for the flaws through microphone technique/choice etc. For me the best solution is moving your piano to here : Attached Thumbnails __________________ Yannick Willox www.acousticrecordingservice.be (mobile recording)

23rd June 2004, 12:01 PM	#7
Ruphus Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Berlin / Germany Posts: 5,051	Hey! That´s a great booth you got there. ... But how do you play on such a little piano? Ruphus __________________ "Am I the only one that tires of this "everything is subjective" watered-down-pop-culture-pseudo-philosophy bullshit?" Bravin Neff Wolgang Burr, former office leader of the German Chancellor before committee of inquiry: "You would not believe what unusual happens daily." "Patience, young Skywalker - let the object of your desires come to you." JTR "All thinking men are atheists." Ernest Hemingway

22nd June 2004, 10:53 PM	#2
Ted Nightshade Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: state of jefferson Posts: 1,328	Actually 4m is not real high for acoustics purposes.... 8m would be more like it. Nothing that happens in that room will be "best", but you can still pull a pretty nice sound out of it with some experimentation and suitable microphones. Mic placement will be the big thing- listen carefully while someone else is playing, to where exactly the best spot is, put the mic exactly there. Fine tune as necessary. good luck!

23rd June 2004, 12:58 AM	#3
genericperson Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 522	there are many, many ways to record a piano. but one i think is rather good is this: you take the lid completely off the piano (literally unscrew it and store it somewhere). then get some cardioids up nice and high and aim down at the piano. basically a birds-eye view on the sound. it's actually a pure sound if you think of how the tones radiate from the soundboard. they go straight up and down like a "dipole" speaker. micing from the side of the piano like you are standing there is a sonic compromise. you are recording bounced sound off of the lid. it's not pure. direct overhead is purist. you could even do a mid-side this way, but still, overhead with lid off, overhead with lid off. so get some nice tall boom stands, and a step ladder. and did i mention overhead with lid off?

23rd June 2004, 05:54 PM	#8
Hans Hitmachine Gear maniac Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 204	Drewling...... I tried removing the lid once but it didtn't do it for me. Thin sound. No good. I removed my diffusers (bookshelves) and came to the conclusion that I like it the best with lots of reflection. Gives a large sound and bass boost. The room is 8 meters in lenght, so maybe that matters too. The instrument is great, typical bell-like Bluethner sound. But I think I'm using the wrong microphones. cardioid Gefell's outside the lid in ofrt . Sounds quite thin. I'm thinking of either B&K-like omnis or a pair of ribbons. Purity is not my main goal. I want a big piano sound (but without close miking). Thanks everyone! __________________ Our day's work over Tim, Rawlins and I decided to sharp up for the big night. We went across town to the rooming house where the opera stars were living. Across the night we heard the beginning of the evening performance. "Just right" said Rawlins. "Latch on to some of these razors and towels and we'll spruce up a bit".

1st July 2004, 05:11 PM	#9
Magnus Gear addict Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Sweden Posts: 302	I think that dynamic mics can sound really good on piano. Try it and see if it works for you. Regards, Magnus

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