Mic for bass guitar amp

[edwinhurwitz]

Hi all!

Hope everyone is having a great new year!

I'm playing a gig this coming wednesday on bass and have been thinking about leaving my modern Euphonic Audio rig at home for this one and bringing my '67 Showman with a JBL K140 and JBL K120. I use it at home for rehearsals, etc with the K120 and it has a wonderful tone. So, what microphone would you suggest? It's for a 1,000 seat theater with a pretty nice PA (The Boulder Theater, if anyone knows it). The mics I can bring include:

EV RE20
Beyer M88
AKG C414 XLS

or other random dynamics or condensers, large and small.

or I could just go with what they have. The tone I am going after is circa Europe '72 Phil Lesh and I do have a Guild Starfire that pretty much nails that tone. I am also going to bring a Groove Tubes Ditto box, but I'm thinking that if I am going to all the trouble to lug a tube amp, the audience might as well hear what I am going for.

TIA
Edwin

[bishopthomas]

Originally Posted by edwinhurwitz

thinking that if I am going to all the trouble to lug a tube amp, the audience might as well hear what I am going for.

Exactly why I always try to mic the bass cabinet rather than taking a DI out. Any of those mics would work out well, but I would probably go for the RE20 first. I'm using a 421 and it's doing a good job, but I've also had good luck with the e609 and an sm57. It sounds like you care about your bass tone on stage, and that's about all that it takes.

[Jim vanBergen]

Ditto. I'd go with the RE20 first, then the M88. As for the direct, is there a way to use the direct out from the amp head (which takes advantage of the lush warmth of the tubes?)

[Nu-tra]

re20 is my fave. beta52 on an svt cab is really a nice combo.

[talbe1019]

I also concur with the RE20.

[edwinhurwitz]

OK, that confirms my suspicion. RE20 it is!

As far as taking a direct out from the head, in 1967 I don't think they were thinking about these things, hence there isn't any!

Thanks for all the input, folks!
Edwin

[edwinhurwitz]

Well, I don't know if anyone is interested in what happened but here it is:

On the day in question, I started out playing at a radio station in Fort Collins, CO. I brought both the Showman and RE20 and the staff was psyched to see the setup. I set my stuff up and the RE20 turned out to be dead, to my amazement. It was completely rebuilt by EV last year. Oh well, they used a beta 57 and loved the sound.

From there, I dashed home to make a speaker Y cable to run 2 cabinets for the show at the Boulder Theater (given that the second speaker jack is filled by the impedance switch for the Hammond 1650T that now resides in the amp). Loaded in and set up only to discover that the Showman had developed a loud obnoxious noise. Very frustrating. It was intermittent and I thought I had gotten rid of it, but didn't want to want to chance it, so I raced back home and got my regular amp (an EA iAmp 800) but added an Alembic F1X to the rack to get some of the character of the Showman. That all worked fine, but the soundman expressed a lot of skepticism about the idea of using a mic. However, given that I also gave him a DI (using a Reichenbach transformer) he was willing to at least give it a shot and they threw up a 421. After the soundcheck he said it sounded pretty good, but at the end of the night he was very enthusiastic about it and used 90% microphone.

Luckily, my drummer works at Grace Design and offered to look at my RE20. He took it apart and discovered that the screw that holds the bottom part of the barrel had come loose and allowed the bottom part to rotate and the wires became severed. He downloaded the schematic for the mic and beefed up the wires, added heat shrink for extra protection and some removable loctite. It works great and I brought for our swing through western Colorado and Utah and every soundman thought it sounded great and used it much more than the DI.

Thanks for all the input, it looks like my RE20 will have a permanent place in my live rig!

Edwin
PS He also discovered that the transformer in the mic has multiple impedance taps. I don't know what reason I would have to use the alternates, but I guess it's nice to know they're there.

[bishopthomas]

Thanks for the update. It sounds like you have a nice collection of bass amplification. I'm jealous. I use a 421 on bass cab and really like it, but I'd like to try my RE20 soon. It annoys me when live sound guys are completely against miking the cabinet. No one can ever give a good reason why they don't like it; the typical response is, "It just doesn't usually work well." As a bass player I take great pride in my tone and the cabinet is at least 33% of it. Why wouldn't a house engineer want to replicate what the bassist is going for (unless the bass player is completely clueless)? I mic the cabinet every time, 60% of the time.

[edwinhurwitz]

Well, even though the engineer at the Boulder Theater was skeptical, he's a longtime friend of mine, so he's pretty willing to try anything that I ask. It really helps to be on good terms with sound people! I got a lot of good comments about the bass tone that night, so I know that he was taking good care of me (plus, he just loves my Starfire).

Edwin

[Jim vanBergen]

Thanks for the postmortem! It's really great when a) people get good advice, b) people listen to good advice, c) people post great results from good advice!

I love this place. Ah, a positive vibe.

Win-Win-Win!

Oh, a funny aside: I was doing Mary Wilson (of the Supremes) last week. Her rider specified two Shure Beta 52 mics for kick & bass cab. All three of our Beta 52s were booked on NBC's Today Show, so I brought RE-27s... guess what the band thought sounded better than usual? Kick & bass cab. Cool!

[bishopthomas]

What was the Mary Wilson gig? I worked with her several months ago in Wildwood, NJ. It was a decent enough show if I remember correctly. I was mixing monitors and it wasn't as dreadful as I had been warned. She had in ears I believe, but didn't carry her own system - only ears. It wasn't spec'd on the rider so it was a last minute scramble to get a Sennheiser IEM unit at the last minute, but Atlantic City Instrument Rentals came through at the last second.

[ekimraham]

Edwin, this is mike from schleigho. I used to mix at emerson. whats up man? I see you are still playin, with whom? I am still mixing, spent like 7 years with Dickey Betts, a couple with The Outlaws...blagh blagh. been on the road. running FOH for Blind Melon now and I think we are going to be out your way in a month or so. anyways... I would go with the M88 hands down. all those kick drum mics suck on the bass amp by muddying up the bottom end and you just end up eq'ing the crap out of it. an 88 or 421 for me or a 57 for that matter. anyways, drop me a line. you guys were the first band I ever mixed for all those years ago...
cheers, Mike

[ahjteam]

If you want to use only one mic, I would prolly go with RE20 like suggested above or use Audix d6, but my choise is usually always some random DI box that the house has + SM57/Opus69 near the center of the cone. Why? A) I've been really used to it over the years B) I don't want that comb filtering stuff on the low end, so I use DI for the low end and SM57 for the high end.

On the DI I start by adding a highpass at 50hz if possible to save room for the subhit of the kick, but if the console only has fixed highpass, then I dont put it on at all. Then I remove the mud near 300hz on the DI-sound and then possibly boosting near 5-7k for the fingersound if the sound from the bass is really clear. Then on the SM57 I try to remove everything below 350hz, so put the highpass on and remove with lowshelf from 500hz (if chooseable) and then boost near 800-1k for clarity and possibly boost the highshelf, then blend them so they sound good.

summa summarum
DI: highpass 50hz, mud cut ~300hz, fingersound boost ~5-7k, highshelf cut ~10khz
57: highpass 350hz, lowshelf cut ~500hz, clarity boost ~800-1k, highshelf boost ~8khz

[edwinhurwitz]

Originally Posted by ahjteam

summa summarum
DI: highpass 50hz, mud cut ~300hz, fingersound boost ~5-7k, highshelf cut ~10khz
57: highpass 350hz, lowshelf cut ~500hz, clarity boost ~800-1k, highshelf boost ~8khz

Wow, you know a lot about how my bass sounds and how it fits into the band sound without even hearing it! You must be psychic! Just kidding, but I find it very dangerous to have preconceived notions about what any instrument needs without hearing how it sounds and what the context is.

One thing that makes it very different is that if you eq for finger sound for me on this bass, you'll be out of luck, since I play the Starfire with a pick. It gives a very different frequency response. You also haven't heard my drummer's kick, so you don't know if it's better to have the bass or kick carry the very lowest frequencies. You also don't know much about the style of our music. We run into engineers quite a bit who have it in their head that hard rock or metal is the only kind of music worth hearing and thus we end up with a very drum heavy mix with a kick drum of doom. It may make the engineer feel good about his ability to mix a macho drum sound but it doesn't serve our music.

It's also quite possible to get good low end from a mic. I find in general that a crappy DI box and a 57 give me a worse sound than a good DI box alone or a good mic alone. When you have a good mic and a good DI, then it's much easier. That's why I travel with both.


Hi Mike!
I'm playing with Great American Taxi out of Boulder, CO. We're traveling a lot this spring and summer, so hopefully we can cross paths! Drop me a line when you get to Colorado!

Edwin

[foldback]

Personally I would never ever hi pass the bass as I'm laying the track down. The fundamental of the low E string on an electric bass is under 40 hz and a 5 string is even lower. I'd never settle for just the harmonics, I want the real bass tone.

It's awkward and kind of expensive but an API 3124 makes a killer direct box for electric bass. I wye-connect the bass into the API and the stage amp, then send the API channel line-out to a separate channel on the recorder. If I have my LA-2 inline with the API output, I set it so the API just barely touches the threshold on the LA-2, this evens out the note dynamics nicely and I get a nice meaty bass sound that does not interfere with the punch of the kick drum. If I don't have the LA-2 then I record the API with lots of headroom direct. That dry API bass track is ripe for re-amplifying during post.

The RE-20 has a nice smooth freq response plot (flat off axis too) so I'd probably pick it for the mic given the choices, but I've also had good luck using a modern U-87 on the bass amp. It's got the extended low end response and the top end comes through without any EQ tricks.

My personal bass rig is a Classic SVT 300 watt tube head with 8x10 cab and '51 Fender P-bass. I love a great bottom :-)

[nandoanalog]

I`ve never used a DI.

[edwinhurwitz]

Originally Posted by foldback

Personally I would never ever hi pass the bass as I'm laying the track down. The fundamental of the low E string on an electric bass is under 40 hz and a 5 string is even lower. I'd never settle for just the harmonics, I want the real bass tone.

It's awkward and kind of expensive but an API 3124 makes a killer direct box for electric bass. I wye-connect the bass into the API and the stage amp, then send the API channel line-out to a separate channel on the recorder. If I have my LA-2 inline with the API output, I set it so the API just barely touches the threshold on the LA-2, this evens out the note dynamics nicely and I get a nice meaty bass sound that does not interfere with the punch of the kick drum. If I don't have the LA-2 then I record the API with lots of headroom direct. That dry API bass track is ripe for re-amplifying during post.

The RE-20 has a nice smooth freq response plot (flat off axis too) so I'd probably pick it for the mic given the choices, but I've also had good luck using a modern U-87 on the bass amp. It's got the extended low end response and the top end comes through without any EQ tricks.

My personal bass rig is a Classic SVT 300 watt tube head with 8x10 cab and '51 Fender P-bass. I love a great bottom :-)

Thanks! I love my 3124 in the studio and also for live recording (with a Groove Tubes DITTO, it also sounds wonderful). However, I was asking mostly about live situations. I suppose I could put the 3124 in my bass rack!

Edwin

[dude24man]

Try an old CAD E200. Arthur

[tchristen]

If you can get your hand on a HEIL PR40 I have been told by others when they used that mic they didn't even need to use eq. You can read more about it over in the prosoundweb.com forums.

[foldback]

Originally Posted by edwinhurwitz

Thanks! I love my 3124 in the studio and also for live recording (with a Groove Tubes DITTO, it also sounds wonderful). However, I was asking mostly about live situations. I suppose I could put the 3124 in my bass rack!

Edwin

Well I was talking about live application also. When I only want to bring the 3124 I use a two space SKB rack and set it on top of my SVT head. This keeps the Wye-cord connection between the input of the 3124 and the SVT nice and short too.

By using the 1/4" input on the 3124 you don't need a direct box so you get rid of two unnecessary audio transformers in the signal path.

It may seem wasteful to be using a quad mic pre for a D.I. but until API gives us a single channel in a box it's what I've got. I love the sound of the API preamp on just about everything and especially electric bass guitar. The LED level inidicator on the API is so handy for getting the output level correct too, I like it up near the top, almost crunching but not quite.

Also love the LA-2. I hand carry mine out of the studio all the time in a 4-space SKB case (it's really light weight even tho it's a 3-rack space gadget).

All the best to you in your recording efforts.

Mark

[edwinhurwitz]

Originally Posted by foldback

Well I was talking about live application also. When I only want to bring the 3124 I use a two space SKB rack and set it on top of my SVT head. This keeps the Wye-cord connection between the input of the 3124 and the SVT nice and short too.

By using the 1/4" input on the 3124 you don't need a direct box so you get rid of two unnecessary audio transformers in the signal path.

It may seem wasteful to be using a quad mic pre for a D.I. but until API gives us a single channel in a box it's what I've got. I love the sound of the API preamp on just about everything and especially electric bass guitar. The LED level indicator on the API is so handy for getting the output level correct too, I like it up near the top, almost crunching but not quite.

Also love the LA-2. I hand carry mine out of the studio all the time in a 4-space SKB case (it's really light weight even tho it's a 3-rack space gadget).

All the best to you in your recording efforts.

Mark

OK, you are a new Gearslut hero! A 3124 as part of a live bass rig is a first! I'm going to have to try this and see how many soundmen insist that they want to use their DI since they don't trust mine! I'm thinking that I want to take my signal to my amp post API, though. I like to hear what the PA is hearing if I am going to color the sound at all.

Edwin

[foldback]

Originally Posted by edwinhurwitz

OK, you are a new Gearslut hero! A 3124 as part of a live bass rig is a first! I'm going to have to try this and see how many soundmen insist that they want to use their DI since they don't trust mine! I'm thinking that I want to take my signal to my amp post API, though. I like to hear what the PA is hearing if I am going to color the sound at all.

Edwin

I think it would depend on what your bass amp is as to whether taking the output of the API to it's input would be appropriate, more specifically, what the input characteristics of the bass rig are, signal level handling, impedance, balanced or unbalanced, etc.

Mine is an SVT (classic tube head, low level, high impedance, unbalanced) so the balanced line out from the API is too hot of a signal for my stage amps input.

I've recorded my 3124 enough to know what it sounds like when the LED VU is almost touching the red, I don't need to hear it to know it's good and the sound engineer will let me know if it's not right. And it is a true line level signal so it's gonna go down the mic snake nicely. Be sure to tell the sound guy not to plug it into a balanced mic input, he'll need a big pad if he goes in there.

I think the build quality and the packaging of the API makes it perfect for field use. I'm glad it's not bigger and heavier. I love the sound. They are not cheap but they have great resale value too so I say if you got it, use it!

Wishing you all the best with bass tone.

Mark

btw, I also have a Grace m801 and love that but it does not have the D.I. inputs like the API