A silly question about money.......

[hollywood_steve]

This is a situation that all location recording guys eventually have to deal with. You record a concert for a set fee and everything goes smoothly; you present the client with their recording and they hand you a check, all is good.

A couple of weeks later you receive an email from the bassoon player who compliments you on the quality of the recording and then asks if he can get a couple of CD copies for his own use. He makes it clear in his request that he doesn't expect any freebies and offers to pay whatever my "fee" is for providing the copies.

On one hand, I have already been paid for this job and shooting off an additional couple of CDs will cost me a grand total of a dollar or two, including all materials and postage. The marketing potential and good will of providing free copies to the bassoon player (who was not my client contact) is worth more than any realistic amount that I could possibly charge for providing the copies. Getting copies of my recordings in the hands of working professional musicians (especially when the recording came out very well) is a good thing and I'm happy to oblige.

On the other hand...... I am presenting myself as a professional, not a hobbyist and nobody expects a business to give their work product away. While the material costs for a couple of copies are very minimal, I will certainly spend at least 1/2 an hour burning the copies, packing them up and taking them to the post office. The recording "business" has such horrible return on investment that I shouldn't contribute to the problem by helping our client base to expect something for nothing.

I'm probably going to just send them out for no cost and consider the marketing value to be worth more than any cash I could have gotten. But I am very curious how the rest of you handle this situation, particularly when the request comes from someone other than your primary contact with the organization. I know that some of you actually make a fair bit of cash by performing duplication services; this is aimed at the rest of us who normally don't get involved in that end of the business. Do you toss out CDs like round business cards or do you consider your CD burner to be a primary profit center of your business?

Thanks.

[henryrobinett]

I don't know. My first thought probably isn't even apropos, but he's not the client, right? Is he entitled to a copy unless the client OKs it?

[Frost]

That is why I charge a reasonable amount per copy. I would rather people hear my work and I get another gig than $10 extra bucks. I do charge for the copies because they do cost me something and they do cost me time, and I do a lot of shit for free, like building my rig

I usually charge like $10 for the first copy then 5 for each additional. If they want jewel cases with pretty labels, then they are $20 for the first, $10 for a couple more. If Im doing a "run" of like 25-50 then we discuss price and type of labeling.

Charge something so you dont get lots of calls for "one of those free copies you offered that other guy"

Frost

[Rick Sutton]

Steve, As a policy, I only release masters and copies to the client. Other's involved have to go through the client to get their copies. Way too many complications any other way.
If, on some occassion you want to release copies or pieces of the performance for demo purposes ( or whatever reason) get the client's permission. My attitude is that it belongs to the original client and is not mine to sell, give away, etc. Best regards, Rick

[fifthcircle]

Really depends on the gig...

I generally only release CDs to the client. Anything extra needs to be ok'd by them... There are too many ways to get in hot water otherwise. That said, when I do it, I charge a sliding scale. I'll start at $10-$15/each (for just a couple) and go down to $5/each if they order a quantity. Anything less that they want to pay and I tell them to go to a dup house as it isn't worth my time.

--Ben

[Tim Halligan]

Originally posted by Rick Sutton
As a policy, I only release masters and copies to the client. Other's involved have to go through the client to get their copies. Way too many complications any other way.
If, on some occassion you want to release copies or pieces of the performance for demo purposes ( or whatever reason) get the client's permission.

...potential legal minefield here - depending on which country you are doing business...
Once you have been paid for your work and handed over all materials that was specified in the original contract, you have no ownership whatsoever of the material, so all enquiries for dubs should be referred to the client. Having said that, I see no problem charging your client for archiving - either a reasonable lump sum, or an annual rate. If the client chooses not to take the archive option, you can either dump the material/media, or archive it anyway and charge a large fee to "rescue" the project when he comes begging down the track.
Technically, dubbing someone else's master - no matter how few - probably constitutes piracy. Your client has the right of commercial exploitation over this material - not you.
Rick and Ben nailed this very succinctly.

Cheers,
Tim

[hollywood_steve]

Ownership is a slightly less obvious when talking about informal recordings of classical music. Its not like a rock band that owns their own songs. This session was a recording of classical standards probably with long expired copyrights (not sure about the publishing).

While I agree with the earlier statements regarding the client and directing all further copy requests throught him, this was a more casual situation and I really don't think the rights isssues apply.

(Think of a Sunday afternoon classical concert in the town park where the "client" is one of the musicians who wants a recording of the performance for his own use. A few weeks later, one of the other players asks if he can get a copy of the show. Yes, the original client paid for the recording, but in this particular case he has no problem with the other players coming to me for copies. I was just curious how others handle the cost / no cost issue regarding CD copies (assuming that the original client has granted permission).

But thanks for the info regarding the proper way to handle this situation. I will keep it in mind for future jobs.

[Remoteness]

Steve,

Based on what you described, I'd give him the freeby CDR. It's the casual thing to do. Lou over at the Music Lab in NY gives out freeby CDRs. He doesn't need to charge for media since it's cheap to buy and he's already getting paid for his time.


On a totally business front -- 5 to 10 bucks a copy is a pretty fair price point in general.

[Jules]

I'm not a remote guy but at my studio we tosss CD's out like candy. They are always 'no charge' unless they are in multiples over 5 or 6. That said we provide no printing' these are simply silver CDR's written on with a pen.... I WANT to get generic white CD's with my studios logo on it... just need to get round to it... one day....

[jazzius II]

I generally don't charge for these CD copy things when they come up.......i really can't be bothered to send an invoice for 3 euros and you can always make the copy while you're doing something else......

[Plush]

In the case described, I'd refer the player requesting the copy to the original client. And I'd charge for it, for sure.

All time is compensated at our studio.

[Jose Mrochek]

very good question hollywood steve. from a client point of view.. if I'm paying you big bucks for something, and then you pull off a "I'll charge you 5 bucks for this" I would probably not hire you again, because that is kind of a cheap attitude. it's like paying time at a studio and then at the end of the day, you want to take home a cd copy of the days work and the engineer tells you it's 3 bucks or whatever, I would not like it.. Not because of the 5 bucks, but it's an ethics type of thing. If I need 25 copies or something, I would prefer the engineer tell me.. umm dude here is a copy, have it copied at some other place.. I don't have time or whatever. It definetly pays off afterwards when the client considers you a friend more than stricly business.. what the hell, give him some minutes of your time and do it for free.

[NorseHorse]

Bump.

[Remoteness]

So, do you give them out or do you charge?

[bishopthomas]

Wow, this is an old one. I think I would refer the musician to the client who has already paid. Even if the client is just "one of the musicians" and the music is public domain, he still paid for the recording to have been done. He might not think it fair that someone is getting the same product for free (or $5) that he likely paid hundreds for. Now, if the client is cool with it and does not have the means or knowledge to make copies then sure, I can provide that service. I think if it's just one CDR with a Sharpee label giving it away will be more beneficial than charging a dollar or two. If you are doing full color inserts and jewel cases then of course you need to be compensated for that.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

I agree it is best to go through the original client. Sometimes if there is a problem with the performance the original client MAY NOT WANT copies to circulate especially if the playing is not up to par or the concert did not go off as planned. It just makes sense to have the request for copies go through the original client just to keep them happy and in the loop. We provide copies of shows that we do for a fee. The client gets charged a fee for each CD or DVD we produce and then they add on their charge and everyone is happy. (If a mastering client wants a couple of CDs we normally do them for free as a value added service.) If someone wants copies of a performance we have done we ask them to go through the original client. In one case we were told that NO ONE was to have a copy of a particular concert because of some problems but we had a couple of people in the group that wanted copies for themselves and we had to tell them "no". It created somewhat of a problem but we did what the person who was paying us wished.

So far our approach has worked well.

[w_stylz]

Originally Posted by Randall

where can I buy a money? who's the manufacturer?

The manufacturer of a "Money" is the Federal Reserve. The price is 3-5% inflation every year until your savings are enough to buy you a loaf of bread (If you're lucky)!

[joelpatterson]

I make it a habit to take the program that is handed out at the concert and turn it into proper CD artwork-- scanning the program list, but also the bios and artist photos and whatever have you.

So the result is in a nice jewel case with all kinds of colored ink and a tray card and booklets and a nice artsy CD label.

Whoever has paid for the recording gets a complimentary copy of this. Anyone of the players is offered one @ $15/each or in batches of #10 @ $10 each, or less for larger runs.

Long ago in a concert hall far away, I realized that a person's perception of the music is greatly tied to the visual presentation. Silly, maybe, but true nonethless!

(This obviously applies to the kind of low-pressure ad hoc concert scenario that's more -or-less a communal effort and not destined for mass distribution at the hands of a foolhardy producer figure.)

[NorseHorse]

I'll tend to give one courtesy CD-R to the client, plus tagged mp3s via the Internet. If they wanted up to five silver CD-Rs, I'd probably just do that free of charge. More than that though, and I'd deal with it on a case-by-case basis. I generally charge if I have to mail them.

[hughesmr]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

Long ago in a concert hall far away, I realized that a person's perception of the music is greatly tied to the visual presentation. Silly, maybe, but true nonethless!

This is spot on. If it looks good, they'll buy it. I've had clients tell me that my artwork/packaging/presentation even make the recording sound better. On some school gigs I've done, I learned some folks were intending to just copy the CD from one person who bought it ... that is, until they SAW the graphic design on the CD with their individual names on it! Then the orders poured in.

I always make a custom graphic designed CD label (with a professional sheen). I build the cost of doing this into the audio production fee. Once made, it's $5/finished copy in slimline cases. If they want the whole enchilada (rear tray card, folded insert), they pay extra for design etc., and the per disc price jumps to $10. Double CD sets (a la Messiah) ... $20/set. And I don't mess with quantity discounts.... I think my pricing is fair enough as is. thumbsup

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by hughesmr

... my artwork/packaging/presentation even make the recording sound better...

I think there are double-blind studies that bear this out!... I mean...

[mixedupsteve]

I would give them a free copy with the permission of the client. I would also ask the client for permission to use the recording for my own marketing purposes.

[Corran]

Even though this is as old as moldy bread...

Every recording I do I ask the client if I am allowed to copy them for players (not public) and also if I can use it as a demo on my website (if it was a good performance ).

I then charge $3 for copies with printed label and slim case.

It's cheap ($3!) but it still brings in about $2.50 in profit and it gets your recordings into the hands of other potential clients. Win/win for everyone!

Joel, at $15 a piece I think you are treading a fine line between people willing to pay that and what your future investment in clients is. That is, unless they are middle/high school kids or something, then yeah they probably aren't going to be hiring you anyway.

[joelpatterson]

Yeah, you do gotta gauge what the market is, what it will bear, who can zoom who.

I find that the actual "bands" doing their "studio" projects are very hip about just getting the master CDR from you that night and taking it away and cranking out their own "for sale" slim-lined copies and artwork, some of which is doggone creative and hip!

The high school scene, I have no doubt some enterprising youngster gets ahold of the music director's copy and scans every bit of it, the booklet pages, the works, and bootlegs either the whole shma-bango, or just the discs, and inevitably alot of mp3-ization and from there it floods out into the world. How is it I only sell, what, four sets ($25/set-of-two CDs) and yet everyone "has" it? Everyone has an elaborate critique and their favorite songs? But I figure: even if I was doing it at cost! and the set cost you $5 or $6 including the postage! kids will still be kids anyway and would rather bootleg it, it's all a part of growing up.

To an older crowd, $15 is nothing, not compared to the rapture they can get from a magically captured concert. It's very, very very important that the CD sound utterly, incomprehensibly, overwhelmingly delightful-- that it be a separate experience from, not just a documentary of, what happened at the show. That's why editing and crossfading and managing the applause is so critical. Everything's critical, when you get down to it.

There's always the two set of people: the ones who pay your rate to record the thing, and then everybody else who for whatever reason wants a copy, if you make it easy for them to order it, they do.

But one thing... you're saying you don't want the bad performances on your site too? Aren't they like... the Special Olympics?

[NorseHorse]

Joel, did you just make fun of handicapped people TWICE in one thread?!

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

Aren't they like... the Special Olympics?

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

I think there are double-blind studies that bear this out!... I mean...

Watch out! ...stike!

[Remoteness]

Look at it like a service charge for for the wear and tear on the equipment when makingthe CDR copies.

[Corran]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

...and then everybody else who for whatever reason wants a copy, if you make it easy for them to order it, they do.

I've done just that too, check my website out!

[joelpatterson]

I have my own, very severe, uh... "philosophical" handicaps, so I know which whereof I speak from!

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by Corran

I've done just that too, check my website out!

Now offering CD sales online! -
Ocean Star Productions is proud to announce that you can now order select CDs of our recordings online! These are generally offered to the performers of this music but some CDs will be available commercially soon. If you are a performer who was recorded recently please click the button on the upper left of this page to see what CDs we are offering.


Slick, Bryan!

[Corran]

The directors/students just got an email with a little "announcement" that their performance can be purchased in this way - we'll see how well this does.