Tascam HD-P2, Fostex FR-2 or Korg MR-1000?

[achabloop5080]

Hi guys,
I'm in the market for a good digital stereo recorder in the 1500€ range.
I plan to record mainly solo classical grand piano in live environment (Auditoriums, Theatres, Churchs ecc.).
I'll use it with a matched Schoeps CMC5 MK21 pair.
I'm considering Tascam HD-P2, Fostex FR-2 and Korg MR-1000.
I know Korg records DSD and I fear this could be a relatively close system (though probably very good sounding in DSD, but converted in PCM how does it sound in relation to the Tascam and Fostex?); I need the best possible quality in this price range, so good preamps and converters but also the possibility of bypassing onboard preamps when I'll have the money to get some very high end preamp.
What do you recommend?

[mohthom]

Sound Devices 702? They ARE pretty snazzy preamps. If you have the extra coins, the 702T has a hard drive . . .
Not too pricey if you can get international shipping sorted, Sound Devices 702 | Sweetwater.com - €1300 without shipping, tax etc.

MohThoM

[RobAnderson]

I have the HDP2. I don't really use the on-board pre's or converters, although the once or twice that I did use them, they didn't sound too bad. I like the unit overall, but it lacks a number of features that I would expect from a 2-channel recorder at this price point.

The housing of the Tascam unit is made of cheapo plastic (I am really afraid of dropping this thing!), it has no balanced line-level inputs, no AES/EBU input. The unbalanced "line" inputs untilise RCA connectors and seem to be calibrated for -10dB; not a good feature if you want to use them with an external mic pre!

On the positive side, it does come with a timecode input standard, it interfaces easily with a computer, the menu's are fairly easy to navigate, and most importantly, it seems to be reliable.

The Sound Devices 722 is probably the better bet - it is more robustly built, has a plethora of input options, can record to external firewire hard drives, etc., although there were some issues with firmware upgrades that caused some reliability problems in the past.

[videoteque]

I know Korg records DSD and I fear this could be a relatively close system

These are the formats it can record:

1-bit audio formats - DSDIFF, DSF, WSD: 2.8224 MHz @ 1-bit, 5.6448 MHz @ 1-bit

PCM audio formats - WAV, BWF: 44.1 kHz @ 16/24-bit, 48 kHz @ 16/24-bit, 88.2 kHz @ 24-bit, 96 kHz @ 24-bit, 176.4 kHz @ 24-bit, 192 kHz @ 24-bit

MP3 format - playback only 44.1kHz/32kbps-320kbps
(MP3 format support will be added in an upcoming free update. This system updater is expected be available in the middle of 2007 via KORG distributor’s websites)

If you don't believe DSD is good, you can always use .WAV!

OK, it's the last time I speak well of the Korg! I swear!!!

I have one and I am happy with it!

[hughesmr]

+1 for the Korg. You won't be dissappointed. Be sure to use the latest firmware update.

[rufus13]

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

I have the HDP2. I don't really use the on-board pre's or converters, although the once or twice that I did use them, they didn't sound too bad. I like the unit overall, but it lacks a number of features that I would expect from a 2-channel recorder at this price point.

The housing of the Tascam unit is made of cheapo plastic (I am really afraid of dropping this thing!), it has no balanced line-level inputs, no AES/EBU input. The unbalanced "line" inputs untilise RCA connectors and seem to be calibrated for -10dB; not a good feature if you want to use them with an external mic pre!

On the positive side, it does come with a timecode input standard, it interfaces easily with a computer, the menu's are fairly easy to navigate, and most importantly, it seems to be reliable.

The Sound Devices 722 is probably the better bet - it is more robustly built, has a plethora of input options, can record to external firewire hard drives, etc., although there were some issues with firmware upgrades that caused some reliability problems in the past.

HD-P2 is firmly pro-sumer in the design/engineering/cost, as well as the consumer retail price slot chosen by Tascam. The case is plastic, but it's light and sturdy. s/p-dif i/o on rca jacks makes the unit a data capture box, which it performs fine as. CF cards are the least expensive, highest capacity Flash media, and they work fine both in the HD-P2 or in an external reader. With high-output capacitor microphones, the preamp is solidly mid-grade. With dynamic models, you'll need an external preamp. The XLR mic inputs can be switched to line inputs on the front panel. The built-in limiter is usable for voice, but it's 24 bit, so lower level works too.

I've has good results with AKG +48 sdc's from the early 1970's and AT 4050's plugged in an running on battery. 8 x 2500+mAH AA batteries will run for no less than 5 hours with headphone/+48/backlight.

On a Max OSX.3 machine, plugging in Firewire powers the unit and mounts the disk.

A sturdy water/dust-resistant case is a good accessory. Pelican or clones will work.

If you have the scratch, you can spend more and get better. You can also spend less and get only a little less. I don't believe that my sound quality or reliability would be impacted by spending more, until I spend much more.

Best luck.

[RobAnderson]

The XLR mic inputs can be switched to line inputs on the front panel.

This is inaccurate. Switching to "line" input disengages the XLR inputs and switches to the RCA. Also, the built-in limiters only work on the mic inputs, not the line inputs.

When I first purchased the unit, I figured it worked like the old PortaDAT. I still can't believe that they could not make provisions for a simple balanced line-level input.

[Plush]

Out of those choices I recommend the KORG. It is a very good recorder worth much more than its asking price. Others are plastic and won't last. KORG is made of metal and Made in Japan, not Made in China.

[mohthom]

Plush, I understand the whole metal/plastic thing (and heartily agree with you).

Why does nation of origin have anything to do with it? A good product is a good product, surely? I'd rather have a good chinese recorder than a crappy one from the USA or Japan, or anywhere for that matter!

Wouldn't it have sufficed to say that you recommend the Korg because . . . and just left out the last bit?

MohThoM

[Plush]

Your request is steeped in political correctness. You won't find any of that with me.

In my opinion it is absolutely critical to support high quality manufacturers. There is a vast difference between something made in China and something made in Japan. One item, made in Japan, has excellent quality control, the components from which it is made are consistent and not changed out to lower build cost, and the people making the product are paid a good wage. NONE of the above is true for something made in China.

I reject, out of hand, and immediately, the slave labor tactics of the CHI-COMMS and their polluting, profit at any (human) cost tactics.

I will gladly pay more, sometimes a hideous amount more, to avoid these CHI-COMM pirates. They, as a nation, (not a racial comment) are ruining our USA economy, polluting on a grand basis never ever seen before and they are working 24/7 to bury us. In their avaricious pursuit they are wasting so much oil that they have forced the price of a barrel of oil to over $ 100.00.

While their industry belches black smoke, their people are stuck on a scooter. During the upcoming Olympics, millions of so called undesirable people will be deported from their own country in order to make a "good impression."

The last person I heard say, "We will bury you," was Nikita Khruschev.

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by Plush

The last person I heard say, "We will bury you," was Nikita Khruschev.

Sure, but Sting doesn't subscribe to this point of view..

[rufus13]

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

This is inaccurate. Switching to "line" input disengages the XLR inputs and switches to the RCA. Also, the built-in limiters only work on the mic inputs, not the line inputs.

When I first purchased the unit, I figured it worked like the old PortaDAT. I still can't believe that they could not make provisions for a simple balanced line-level input.

I must have used the 20dB pad on the XLR jacks as line input, rather than switch to "(rca) line in". It worked. I've used the DA-P1, and won't miss little fragile DAT tape cartridges, heads that get dirty and are unobtainium, or proprietary battery pack. AA batteries in high-cap Ni-MH are good. Soon, we will be able to get A123 super-hi-cap NanoLi AA's.

If you want to hate Tascam: HD-P2 is made in Red China (which, like Japan, is capable of making extraordinary-quality products, but has learned that low-quality is much more profitable for export) and uses a licensed version of Microsoft Windows CE for the guts of the operating system. I've had no OS problems and have the latest version installed (which I downloaded and installed at no charge, and no need to "authorize" with M$ or Tascam servers).

Like I said, you can spend more and get a really-great unit from SD, or less and get a functional recorder from Korg/M-Audio/etc.

Here's a real review, rather than my anecdotal commentary: DV - Reviews - HD-P2

Jay Rose has many useful articles at his site and writes the most informative articles (rare audio articles in a video magazine) in DV magazine.

Cheers.

[mosrite]

Your request is steeped in political correctness. You won't find any of that with me.

In my opinion it is absolutely critical to support high quality manufacturers. There is a vast difference between something made in China and something made in Japan. One item, made in Japan, has excellent quality control, the components from which it is made are consistent and not changed out to lower build cost, and the people making the product are paid a good wage. NONE of the above is true for something made in China.

I reject, out of hand, and immediately, the slave labor tactics of the CHI-COMMS and their polluting, profit at any (human) cost tactics.

I will gladly pay more, sometimes a hideous amount more, to avoid these CHI-COMM pirates. They, as a nation, (not a racial comment) are ruining our USA economy, polluting on a grand basis never ever seen before and they are working 24/7 to bury us. In their avaricious pursuit they are wasting so much oil that they have forced the price of a barrel of oil to over $ 100.00.

While their industry belches black smoke, their people are stuck on a scooter. During the upcoming Olympics, millions of so called undesirable people will be deported from their own country in order to make a "good impression."

The last person I heard say, "We will bury you," was Nikita Khruschev.

As much as I like your writings Plushy and as much as I find 'political correctness' an abhorrent idea, your response comes over as a little 'red faced.'

As far as I am aware it is the good ol' USA that is the number one polluter given it's citizens insatiable appetite for big bastard automobiles and wasteful living.

While I find the way that the Chinese economy is growing quite disturbing it is the nature of the growth and not the growth itself that disturbs me.

The truth of the matter is the US going to be overtaken as the world superpower and I can imagine some find that a difficult pill to swallow. I also think that the state of the US economy rests on a number of factors and it is too easy to simply 'point the finger'.

Regards manufacture, I believe it would be almost impossible to tell whether an electronic device that is made in Japan or the USA actually has components outsourced to China, but then I guess it's the 'assembly' that matters most as that is where QC really comes to the fore...

[RobAnderson]

I must have used the 20dB pad on the XLR jacks as line input, rather than switch to "(rca) line in". It worked.

I stand corrected - I ran a 0VU 1 kHz signal from a high-end mic pre into the XLR input of the Tascam box and, with the gain all the way down and the pad engaged, the meters on the screen read -20dBfs.

A quick check on the impedance reveals an extremely high input impedance (>30k ohms? - some reactance going on so it's hard to get a good nominal reading).

The XLR inputs with the pad are in fact line-level inputs. I did not test for any saturation problems at higher signal levels, but you seemed to not have any such problems.

Thanks rufus13!

[scifijedi]

just pay the extra 600.00 and get the sound devices 702 and you won't have to blow hard earned cash on preamps.......sd 702 preamps kick asss......and they also kick serious asss out the 1/8" headphone jack into my daw...pellucid and beautiful .....plus,,,,the unit itself is so much better sounding than those 3 candidates,,,,comparatively speaking to the sd's 1800.00 ,the others should cost about 700.00.....that's about the truth....and also my factual opinion.....
the 702's build quality is all metal//aluminum and made for 2 lifetimes..702 is also 3 leagues above this trio of plasticy contenders......

[stirinthesauce]

we've had all 3 at various times in our closet (well, not the 702 but the 744t). The korg was the best sounding box, stock. The pre's though would tend to overload on hotter sources, our solution was an external xlr barrel -15dbpad. The 744 (or 702 or 722) was extemely nice but seeing as how little we need a portable 2 or 4 channel recorder, the price was not justified. It left. The 7xx series boxes sound great and have limitless options. If on a budget, the tascam is a damn fine alternative. That is our only 2 channel recorder we have kept. It sounds fine stock, the converters are much nicer than the pre though it sounds clean and detailed at lower gain. I tend to run an external pre in front for ambient sources or stock for backup purposes. I have no problems running line in on the rca's or the xlr and never any issues overloading the inputs on a hot signal. The big reason this box sticks around is that at 700 (what I payed for a demo unit), the price is justified for something that has great versatility for what it is, a 2 channel recoder that gets used for a 2 channel backup on multitrack gigs that has a little more versatility than other 2 channel recorders in that price point. Now, with that said, if one needs a rock solid 2 channel recorder that is used in the field on regurlar basis, I would highly recommend the sd boxes, if your budget is not too tight.

[XLR]

I only know the Tascam, bought it because I was familiar with the DA-P1, and the SoundDevices was out of my budget.

I'm using it stock for back-up, and with an external preamp with built in converters when recording 2-track only. This has turned out to be a reliable solution. I have an external battery pack for the pre, some 8G CF cards, and all together in a shoulder bag it's kind of smart :-)

Last time I used it without the outboard pre I had a strange problem: One channel recorded 20dB less than the other, but the pad was NOT switched on, and the signal chain was ok. I never heard of something like that, may be my unit has a soldering problem inside around the pads, have to give it to the service.
But despite of this it was allways ok.

[JEGG]

First of all-there are two line inputs on the recorder. One is RCA, consumer level, the other is line level XLR, available by using the pads for that very purpose. And you can run very hot line in signals (!). There seems to be no noise penalty for doing so.

It's made of a sturdy composite material, and it does feel fragile-perhaps in some degree because of its very light weight. It's not fragile. You can pull all you want to on those Neutrik connectors and they won't budge-there's a very solid frame under that plastic. In fact, those are about the most firmly mounted connectors I've seen (felt?). (The switches on top, however, are scary-but they've never malfunctioned.)

I've been silly by just throwing it a larger bag that is totally unpadded! Nothings happened there! (I don't do the same with my mics!)

I use it with Sennheiser MKH mics mostly, but when indoor air quality is bad (clouds of incense in churches) I use Oktavas 012s and AKG 414s (very rarely!). Very extended and solid low end, with a very smooth upper end for those organ mixtures. It's very quiet, electrically.

It yields a huge recorded image. I'm not sure why the lack of XLR outs is such a big deal. It is a field device, after all. It's got a decent headphone amp. And it does have digi ins and outs.

The mic amps are spec'd with very low gain-possibly only 45 to 50 dB. I worried about that! That's never been a problem. The preamp pot is typically set at or under the 1/2 way mark, and I've never had to push it past the 2/3 mark. The analogue electronics sound great and never sound strained. And I do classical recording. It's a very electrically quiet device.

The features and access to them are extremely well thought out.

It's not perfect. I've listed some nit picks elsewhere. There are some things about it that seem blindingly dumb, build and design wise. (The CF card mount, for one.)

It's got the sound! And secondarily, it's not badly priced-a little over US$800 from one of the well known midwestern retailers.

Check out the review in SOS.

And-I would urge my fellow Americans to exercise restraint in judging other countries' labor, energy, pollution, military, economic, and human rights policies........

[momule]

In your conditions I vote Fostex Fr-2. IMO bang for the buck it's hard to beat.
You can have either Oade or Busman flavor the pre's for you. I suggest the ("Warm" if oade) and ("Vintage" if Busman). Oade will only mod boxes he sells but busman will mod any box. You can find busman here. chris @ busmanaudio.com (take out the spaces)

Ordering for Oade Brothers Audio: Fostex FR2LE WMOD 24/96 CF recorder - Ground Shipping

[James0b57]

Originally Posted by JEGG

And-I would urge my fellow Americans to exercise restraint in judging other countries' labor, energy, pollution, military, economic, and human rights policies........

I agree. It's always better to show restraint. I lived in China mainland for over 13 years, and I love the country and have many great friends there. You know what's ironic though? Up until very very recently, Chinese people, although proud of their nation, would avoid buying Chinese products and opt for Japanse or American, even when it was the same product only differing in country of manufacture.

We will see alot of improvement in Chinese produce products and companies, but a stigma is hard to shake. It will take a while for the perception of Chinese products to change, just as it did for the Japanese.

Alot of Americans prefer to buy high end European products, and that doesn't get my panties in a wad when they say the Europeans do it better. It's just an opinion, or perception. I may make a case for American quality if it aplies, but I won't tell him to retract his statement.

----------

Anyone have more info/experience with the Fostex FR-2? In particular how it compares with the HD-P2. I don't think anyone will contest that Sound Devices products are better, but the used market price between Tascam/Fostex and Sound Devices is drastic. Especially when you factor in Time Code. A 702t runs at 2200 used, while a fostex fr2(with time code option card) or Tascam run at under a grand, sometimes less.

Cheers,
James

-I've never over paid for anything! Perhaps that's why I'm still single.