Indian Ensemble in a Dome Temple

[Adagio12]

Hi folks!

I have an opportunity soon to record an ensemble consisting of :

1 Harmonium/lead singer
Tablas
Double ended drum
Chorus of 20-30 people

The location is an amazing Dome Temple about 15 metres Diameter with a ceiling around 10m high.

The people will be performing Kirtan which is Yogic call/return chanting lead by the Harmonium player.

I've studied Orchestral Recording at school and had the opportunity to Record an Orchestra with a Sound Field Stereo X/Y mic up front and a Nuemann Blumlein array further back and understand this technique well

However being a round Room,I'm wondering if other methods are called for.

The weird thing is these people usually sit in a circle with the Harmonium at 12'oclock and the drums either side, and this is how they are most comfortable.

So I'm thinking, instead of forcing them into a "Stage like" setup with the instruments up front and the chorus behind with the afforementioned Orchestral technique and some spot mics........what about just letting them sit in the usual circle with a Blumlein Array in the centre of the room about 3-4 feet high...?
I'd imagine this would make for a great recording..with them being comfortable and should give a good 3-D like effect...???

From past experience I've found that the Harmonium is very loud and needs to be balanced against the Chorus
So with one side of the Blumlein picking up the Instruments and the other picking up the chorus I'd be able to blend them volume wise
I'd also use a lead vocal large diaphagm condenser set to cardiod to reject the Harmonium and some close mics for the Drums


Any body have any thoughts/experience with this kind of thing?

[loujudson]

I have done a lot of Kirtan live sound and recording, working with the likes of Jai Uttal and Krishna Das and Deva Premal.

I always let them set up the way they want to (one reason I am popular is I don't impose my will on them at all, just let them know what works and what doesn't) and close mic each instrument and voice. Mic selection for the voice can be crucial - most of them don't have great voices, just a lot of devotion and charisma (Deva Premal excepted, fabulous pipes!) so you need a mic that helps them sound better to you. Giving them monitors for live gigs is a big challenge, as Jai and KD are pretty deaf by now... Hope fully that won't be your problem.

Then mic the chorus part in stereo, try both coincident pairs and wide stereo pairs pointed at the center. My experience with round space is to avoid the center as it all focuses there and become a mishmosh with no definition at all - walk around a ot and find some sweet spots and mic them creatively. I find hypercardioids let you aim at nice resonant areas, and/or avoid the worse singers or highlight the better ones.

I like Audix D4 on this type of drums, one for a pair of Tabas and one each end of the dholak, Kohl (or whatever it is). I don't find Harmoniums too loud, but then I do mostly live sound and always close mic it, often in stereo - it is an organ after all.

Best luck! Let us know how it goes.

Lou

[d_fu]

I'm personally not fond of coincident setups - I'd go for AB, ORTF or some derivative thereof.

Let them sit in a circle, set up a main pair of your choice, but don't forget to spot the solo singer and the drums - not only for volume, but for some direct sound.

Also Tabla (Dholak/Khol) and the Indian Harmonium aren't really all that loud.
A spot mic for the singer that is slightly tilted and from above will pick up enough of the harmonium, though.

What mics do you have at your disposal?

Daniel

[Andraes]

Once on this forum an AKG 414 was recommended for tabla.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by Andraes

Once on this forum an AKG 414 was recommended for tabla.

That was me...

[loujudson]

Originally Posted by d_fu

I'm personally not fond of coincident setups - I'd go for AB, ORTF or some derivative thereof.
Daniel

Certainly a matter of taste. Most of the kirtan I do is live with PA so I have interesting times recording the audience response without the mains ....

But live or studio, I have also found AT clip mics work wonders on tablas at times - recently did a session with a trap drummer who has four tablas too and went back and forth seamlessly - four clip mics gave excellent separation from the cymbals and kick. Sounded like two drummers! (I know, different kettle of fish).

L

[scifijedi]

ooh a round room.......is the big white monkey in there too???????
i'd stick my mkh30 nearest the quietest instrument first..........then experiment with everything else you decide with other mics..............i could do that whole recording just fine with an mkh30........it's magic mic....ymmv....
i know the hari krishnas prertty well.....hindu.....very passive.......they will lie to make you feel good.........they are great people......and they are very contrary.........and they want you to move slower and listen more than talk.........i don't think they do much soloing so spot micing won't be too necessary........that's my opinion.......i've sat in on plenty of these harmoniun sing together type jams.......they handout a papers with all the krishna lyrics and about 10-30 people sing.......most of the people don't even speak the language they are singing{mumbling} because they are new.......and the krishnas are very forgiving to bad bad singers.......alot of hippys at our krishna temple here.....it's fun..........and everybody is all messed up on free chai.......
anyway they are super fun partyers.........have fun with your gig,it's definately a great one....happy new year

[loujudson]

Originally Posted by screamingcatfish

i know the hari krishnas prertty well.....hindu.....very passive. edit..have fun with your gig,it's definately a great one....happy new year

My personal experience is always with Americans, not Hindus, except Deva Premal who is German. People who have spent lots of time at ashrams in India... all very nice but not passive-agressive at all.

2c, L

[Adagio12]

Thanks for all the replys folks

I have a couple of AKG C414 BXL II's for Blumlein , going into a Sebatron vmp-2000eVU,into an Apogee AD16x
Thats the signal chain I want to make the most of.
I'm attracted to the Blumlein Idea because of the 360 degree pickup patterns and because blending it in under a main closer stereo pair is going to give me control over the powerful natural Reverb....I've been there and it's quite astonishing...like a 3sec RT60....the Stone almost feeels like its resonating.....probably is!
When i say they sit in a circle....i mean a full circle..which has its problems when you have some singers much closer to the mics than others.
What about getting them to sit in a big semi circle arc...with instruments in the middle....an X/Y pointed at the outside edges and a blumlein further back and up a little higher to capture the room?

I have 2 Violet Design Fingers I can use for the main X/Y,Ortiff,M/S setup

X/Y or Ortiff?....not a big fan of the whole M/S for mono compatibility thing, this wont be played on TV...
Less focus than a true X/Y would probably be the go...to try and blend the not so well pitched cats from the others? would Ortiff do that?

The rest of my mics are underwhelming;

To old Calrec small diagphragm condensers
To Jo Meek " "
A bunch of 57's...a 58
A Rhode NT2

And all other mics will be going into an Octopre out D-sub to the Ad16X
Not a fan of the Octopre..(I'm on the road to fillling out my rack wih good pres) but thats what I've got

It's very hard to hire any decent mics here in New Zealand, especially condensers.
The most I can find is a TL Audio Ivory 5000 with its own preamp, which i could use for the Main Vox
I can hire MD421's and a Shoeps small condenser but thats about all

These are Kiwi Yogis who all attend a Yoga Studio called Ashram Yoga, which covers all the traditional aspects of Yoga taught by the Satyandana lineage
The Kirtans happen once a fortnight and can vary from subdued to rollicking depending on the people who turn up.
I've been Doing Asana/Meditation/Pranayama classes there for a few years and drop in for a sing along now and again
There's no religious zealous types just real down to earth people who love Yoga and a good sing song, with a great Vege feed thown in.
The singing is more for the Physical/emotional/enjoyment benefits
I remember singing in Primary school and just loving it and looking forward to it, so it's been nice to flex the vocal chords from time to time and catch up with some interesting Cats

There are some excellent singers likely to be at the recording doing some beautiful harmonies...with a few squawkers thrown in to anchor things not doubt :>)

The Haris? well they're in a slightly different category :D

Thanks again for the replies...everything helps!

[Adagio12]

Surely i dont Faff about trying to mic both ends of a double ended drum?

Just 1 mic in the middle? cardiod?
I recorded them a couple of months ago as a practice in a 15mx10m room
It's not so much that the harmonium is loud...it's that it tends to bleed bigtime into any other mics if the room isn't all that big...and when it comes to mixing seems to permeate all tracks with potentially phasey issues.

I want to keep things as natural sounding as possible and plan to close mic the drums and singer and do a spaced pair on the Harmonium
However all these mics are only to compliment the Bigger images on the stereo mics, to add a little definition and strength.

So getting the Stereo micing right is the prority for me
Bottom line is I will need to take the time to have a quick experimental session and try some different things...i might get a handful of people to bang out some tunes an hour before hand.

Thanks again for the tips!

[David Rick]

Apparently the Kirtan traditions in India cross religious boundaries: I recorded one organized by Sikhs. The call and response thing is really cool -- it reminds me of jazz cats trading fours.

Getting some separation between the lead singer and his harmonium can be a challenge. There may be a place for the figure-eight techniques we use in a singer with guitar situation. As for tabla, the pickier players will appreciate one mic between two drums, so that they control the balance not you. If your 414's are tied up, you can use a 421 -- just be certain to have the rolloff set clear to the "M" side: you can't roll off the bottom because you really want to capture that drum resonance.

Fans of this music expect to hear it with an amazing amount of reverb. It's a challenge to do this and maintain any clarity at all. My strategy would be to capture the reverberance as a seperate element, using mics just for that and trying to minimize the direct sound they hear so you can crank them way up in the mix without bad phasing. Four mics deep in the reverberant field (perhaps with nulls aimed at the performers) will give you plenty to work with and the opportunity to have fun in surround. Then you have the spots for clarity. I'm not sure how useful a "main" array will be in this context -- it wasn't too useful to me.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes!

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by David Rick

As for tabla, the pickier players will appreciate one mic between two drums, so that they control the balance not you.

Balance aside, there is simply no need to use more than one mic for the Tabla... One will do, cardioid or even hypercardioid.
As for the double-sided drums (Dholak), in most cases one on the right-hand side will be sufficient as well.

Originally Posted by Adagio12

I'm attracted to the Blumlein Idea because of the 360 degree pickup patterns

Not really... The rear signals will be L/R reverse... Blumlein is not for "surround".
Use the 414s in omni or try the Calrecs as main/ambience mic, maybe, then you can use the 414 on Tabla and the lead singer.
Even though harmonium and even the drums will seep in a bit everywhere, don't make the (all too common) mistake of attenuating their direct mics too much, this will only result in an over-ambient diffuse sound from these instruments.

Daniel

[locosoundman]

I have to agree with Daniel on this one - Blumlein is NOT a 360-degree technique - not only because of image reversal front to back, but it can get kind of weird for sound sources at the extreme left and right.

However, it does have some interesting potential for this application. Two things you might consider:

1. Rather than sitting in a circle, have one group in the front and one in the back - each comfortably within a 90-degree arc with regards to the front or rear perspective (with a few degrees of padding on either side). This should ensure that no sound source suddenly "teleports" from right to left in the middle of a song.

OR

2. Since you are familiar with the Soundfield mic, why not go ambisonic for this? Figure out a desirable surround image and sit the group this way (or let them sit as they please). Instead of a traditional XY Blumlein, set up an MS Blumlein (the two are essentially equivalent, but allow for different things). Simply slip a small diaphragm omni in-between your two figure eights and you will have the ability to do a stereo recording and decode for surround later.

Of course, if you elect not to use spot mic's, the ensemble will have to be clustered pretty close to the array and you will have to spend some time shuffling musicians around until you get the balance and image you are after.

Best of luck.

[tombak]

Originally Posted by Andraes

Once on this forum an AKG 414 was recommended for tabla.

A Audix D6 sounded pretty great on the bayan (the low drum) with a condesnsor for the dayan (high drum) I'm sure a Sennheiser 421 or two would do the trick if you're looking for more isolation.

[tombak]

Originally Posted by loujudson

I don't find Harmoniums too loud, but then I do mostly live sound and always close mic it, often in stereo - it is an organ after all.

They are not too loud, and yes mic the harmonium in stereo. Depending on the quality of the harmonium and skill of the player you may or may not hear a lot of the mechanics of the instrument.

[loujudson]

Originally Posted by locosoundman

edited
Of course, if you elect not to use spot mic's, the ensemble will have to be clustered pretty close to the array and you will have to spend some time shuffling musicians around until you get the balance and image you are after.

edited
Best of luck.

I will never forget the frustration and exasperation expressed to me by a musician who was forced to record this way - the recordist (for a major classical label, who never did pay them for it!) kept moving this person and that an inch or two one way or another and making them play it again and again, until when the guy was happy with their positions and was ready to roll tape, they had no energy, a lot of anger and impatience, and had completely lost the spirit of the music.

I firmly believe that making the performers comfortable, and setting up to record in the least obtrusive way, and taking as little time as possible to be ready to catch their inspiration, will be far, far more valuable and will make a much better recording than inching them around and experimenting and making the try it again and ending up with a lousy recording and enemies among the musicians!

If you hire them and pay them by the hour to be your living guiniea pigs, then go ahead and keep making them jump through hoops - but it does no good in the long run to get a perfect recording of a flawed, frustrated performance!

Maybe this is one reason I get asked back again and again to do the live sound for many happy clients.

Try to treat them with respect and be quick and helpful and as invisible as you can, while getting the sound you want. IT;s a greatthing to be going through all this ahead of time, so you can be ready to capture the devotion and the love that will be there at the beginning - don't lose it!

That said, I would close mic the leaders and use a stereo pair on the responders. But that is just me!
Best luck!

Lou

PS - you might try close micing the leaders, and having the figure 8 Blumlein pair directly over them so that they are in the null spot! Then you can get close leaders and stereo groups responders...

L

[loujudson]

Originally Posted by initialsmm

A Audix D6 sounded pretty great on the bayan (the low drum) with a condesnsor for the tabla (high drum) I'm sure a Sennheiser 421 or two would do the trick if you're looking for more isolation.

I love a D6 on a kick, but exaggerating the low end of the bayan may not please the player! I use D3, one for the set of tablas...

L

[tombak]

Originally Posted by loujudson

I love a D6 on a kick, but exaggerating the low end of the bayan may not please the player! I use D3, one for the set of tablas...

L

Yes I suppose it depends on the circumstances, very good point!

[7rojo7]

With a 3sec reverb you won't need to capture it, you'll want to shoot it.
Forget about crossed 8's, even if you learned it in school, if you like 8's try a hamasaki square.
Better yet forget about 8's, too much proximity effect, even if it's not near something, non linear frequency response is the issue and very romantic
Close mic the instruments and make some kind of array for the chorus, these will also serve as your ambient mic
If you can, record an impulse and you can load it into a reverb, or you can put something up (2 omnis less than an inch from the walls)
Calrec made great mics
Calrecs on the percussion, 58 or violet on the singer, NT2 or violet on the Harmonium or vicaversa, if the 414s have a half omni position put them back to back at chest level in the middle (U89s?) the circle of bodies will protect you from the washout. if you don't have half omnis, use 3 mics (a pair and another mic (414s and the NT2), stay calm it will sound fine. you have to imagine that you're cutting a circle and opening it into a straight line, LCR). Anything will work for the ambience. Put the better singers up front
Ping the room when all the mics are up in front of the vocal mic and slide things around later.
You should be able to mix this.