Recording Solo Cello - ORTF? Mid-Side?

rattledaddy · 1st January 2008

Slutz,

Happy New Year!

I have a remote session coming up where I'll be recording solo Cello in a medium sized (24'/18'/8.6') living room. I have never recorded Cello before. The room itself is pretty live sounding with glass windows on one entire wall (with a great view and vibe). I can move the artist into a less live space like the "control" room if necessary.

My gear list is as follows...

Mic Pres:
Digi 003
API A2D
Summit 2BA-22
Presonus Digimax LT

Mics:
2x AKG 414BXLSs,
2x Shure SM81s
1x 1 Mojave MA 200,
1x AT 3035
57s, 58s, and a a D112.
By the time this session I also have access to a Royer 121 and an AEA R84.

I was thinking that my first setup would be to use the 414s in Omni mode or SM81s Cardiod on my stereo bar ORTF and put the Mojave up as a room mic. I'd put the main pair 3'-6' away from the Cello and place the Mojave up almost as an overhead or perhaps I could put it 12' or more away from the artist. I understand that close mics are not so good on cello. I'd run the main pair through the APIs, analog into the 003 bypassing the Digi converters and run the Mojave through the Summit. What do you all think? I have also been contemplating going with a Mid Side configuration with the MA 200 as the mid and one of the 414s or a ribbon as the side? Comments? Suggestions?

Thanks!

Scot

David Rick · 1st January 2008

I'm not familar with the Mojave, but 414's can be rather good cello mics. It's hard to say what technique or placement you should use without hearing the particular instrument in the particular room, though it sounds like the room may be too live to use them as omni's. The newest model has a sub-cardioid pattern that might be worth a try, but it will probably still be too much room sound. I'm guessing the room will be overly bright, and have inadequate bass support due to its size.

On the 414's in my locker (so many versions, so many sounds!), the hyper-cardioid pattern is often my favorite on cello. Depending on the shape of the room, and whether rear-wall reflections sound better or worse than side-wall and ceiling reflections, figure-eight pattern is also worth considering. Yes, you sacrifice the uncolored low end of an omni, but then a dual-diaphragm omni never quite gets there anyway. The higher directivity patterns give you the chance to add the reverberance you want, rather than live with the reverberance you have. Listen carefully and decide "is this room helping or hurting?", and let that dictate your approach.

I wouldn't bother with a third mic in such a small room. A stereo pair six feet away will probably still sound quite close.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording

ISedlacek · 1st January 2008

My studio room is of similar size, only with higher ceiling (although acoustically treated). I have spent literally hours and hours trying to capture violin, viola etc. in the best possible way (including today) and in the end (after many enthusiastic intermediate states) always found that using more than a stereo pair does not improve the overall sound, but rather opposite - it blurres it somehow, spoils the clarity etc. Whether it was a second Schoeps pair or a "room" R88 ...
I gave it up today (hopefully

) and returned to a single stereo pair (with Bricasti reverb it will be changed in a true church anyway

)
I am sure that in a big concert hall or church, additional mics would be useful ...

So it may be true also for violoncello. Maybe you could try a simple stereo pair first. I personally like AB the best (since I like a "spacy violin") ...

It is also true that in an untreated living room, the sound of a living room may be quite obvious, so too much "ambience" and early reflections may not be welcome ...

rattledaddy · 1st January 2008

Thanks all... I appreciate the feedback.

S

7rojo7 · 5th January 2008

Put the Mojave through the Summit 4 ft in front at the height of the bridge and use the 414s in omni less than an inch from the side walls, boundary mics.
If your not going directly to 2 you can use them or not.
I think the Mojave will have the right character for the instrument
I've never been too keen on close stereo instrument micing.
I never use MS for anything, it belongs on TV as audience mics

dan p · 5th January 2008

I used a 414 buls on my wifes cello!Results were good.I also used an mpc 100a preamp as well.Preamp can make a huge difference!LOL

Dan P

rattledaddy · 6th January 2008

Thanks! The session is on the 27th... If possible I'll try multiple configs and post the results.

S

GYMusic · 6th January 2008

Your 414s in a Blumlein pair. You can't lose!

1st January 2008	#1
rattledaddy Gear Head Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: San Francisco Posts: 67 Thread Starter	Recording Solo Cello - ORTF? Mid-Side? Slutz, Happy New Year! I have a remote session coming up where I'll be recording solo Cello in a medium sized (24'/18'/8.6') living room. I have never recorded Cello before. The room itself is pretty live sounding with glass windows on one entire wall (with a great view and vibe). I can move the artist into a less live space like the "control" room if necessary. My gear list is as follows... Mic Pres: Digi 003 API A2D Summit 2BA-22 Presonus Digimax LT Mics: 2x AKG 414BXLSs, 2x Shure SM81s 1x 1 Mojave MA 200, 1x AT 3035 57s, 58s, and a a D112. By the time this session I also have access to a Royer 121 and an AEA R84. I was thinking that my first setup would be to use the 414s in Omni mode or SM81s Cardiod on my stereo bar ORTF and put the Mojave up as a room mic. I'd put the main pair 3'-6' away from the Cello and place the Mojave up almost as an overhead or perhaps I could put it 12' or more away from the artist. I understand that close mics are not so good on cello. I'd run the main pair through the APIs, analog into the 003 bypassing the Digi converters and run the Mojave through the Summit. What do you all think? I have also been contemplating going with a Mid Side configuration with the MA 200 as the mid and one of the 414s or a ribbon as the side? Comments? Suggestions? Thanks! Scot

1st January 2008	#3
ISedlacek Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Czech mountains and forests Posts: 3,821	My studio room is of similar size, only with higher ceiling (although acoustically treated). I have spent literally hours and hours trying to capture violin, viola etc. in the best possible way (including today) and in the end (after many enthusiastic intermediate states) always found that using more than a stereo pair does not improve the overall sound, but rather opposite - it blurres it somehow, spoils the clarity etc. Whether it was a second Schoeps pair or a "room" R88 ... I gave it up today (hopefully ) and returned to a single stereo pair (with Bricasti reverb it will be changed in a true church anyway ) I am sure that in a big concert hall or church, additional mics would be useful ... So it may be true also for violoncello. Maybe you could try a simple stereo pair first. I personally like AB the best (since I like a "spacy violin") ... It is also true that in an untreated living room, the sound of a living room may be quite obvious, so too much "ambience" and early reflections may not be welcome ... __________________ Ivo Sedlacek Savita Music Velvet Mastering Velvet Sound

5th January 2008	#5
7rojo7 urumita Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Spoleto, Italy Posts: 2,370	Put the Mojave through the Summit 4 ft in front at the height of the bridge and use the 414s in omni less than an inch from the side walls, boundary mics. If your not going directly to 2 you can use them or not. I think the Mojave will have the right character for the instrument I've never been too keen on close stereo instrument micing. I never use MS for anything, it belongs on TV as audience mics __________________ love and light

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1st January 2008	#2
David Rick Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 555	I'm not familar with the Mojave, but 414's can be rather good cello mics. It's hard to say what technique or placement you should use without hearing the particular instrument in the particular room, though it sounds like the room may be too live to use them as omni's. The newest model has a sub-cardioid pattern that might be worth a try, but it will probably still be too much room sound. I'm guessing the room will be overly bright, and have inadequate bass support due to its size. On the 414's in my locker (so many versions, so many sounds!), the hyper-cardioid pattern is often my favorite on cello. Depending on the shape of the room, and whether rear-wall reflections sound better or worse than side-wall and ceiling reflections, figure-eight pattern is also worth considering. Yes, you sacrifice the uncolored low end of an omni, but then a dual-diaphragm omni never quite gets there anyway. The higher directivity patterns give you the chance to add the reverberance you want, rather than live with the reverberance you have. Listen carefully and decide "is this room helping or hurting?", and let that dictate your approach. I wouldn't bother with a third mic in such a small room. A stereo pair six feet away will probably still sound quite close. David L. Rick Seventh String Recording

5th January 2008	#6
dan p Lives for gear Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: san ramon ca Posts: 1,191	I used a 414 buls on my wifes cello!Results were good.I also used an mpc 100a preamp as well.Preamp can make a huge difference!LOL Dan P

6th January 2008	#7
rattledaddy Gear Head Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: San Francisco Posts: 67 Thread Starter	Thanks! The session is on the 27th... If possible I'll try multiple configs and post the results. S

6th January 2008	#8
GYMusic Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Santa Ynez, Taxafornia Posts: 839	Your 414s in a Blumlein pair. You can't lose!