Rackmount computers? Which Schoeps?

[natibuck340]

Hi - I hope you guys don't mind a two-fer, so here goes.... my situation is that i've been mobile recording for about a year now of college and community level musicians (everything from soloists, to ensembles, to full orch and choir) with just an NT-4 (Rode's stereo pair), cheap preamp/mixer and tascam recorder and have gotten my money's worth for sure. But, like you guys I always lust for something better... unfortunately I am so locked into this idea of using a pc as my main and the tascam as my backup that i was fishing around and found this website: Rack Mount PC - All Models Industrial Computers from SuperLogics, Inc.
so my questions are these:
1) anyone ever tried using a rackmount pc like the ones on this website?
2) if you had to buy two matched-pair Schoeps mics that would be as all-inclusive as possible (solo, ensemble, full orch and choir), which would you buy (regardless of price)?

Before I turn the sages loose on this one, let me preempt a few inevitable commments (I read this forum all the time til my eyes bleed)... I know that computers crash, that's why i'll use my current setup as my backup...and I know I need better preamps as well, but i already know what i'm upgrading to for that! thanks everybody, this forum is the most underrated on gearslutz!!! i love it though!!
- J

[sonare]

Why go through the hassle of a rackmount computer? I used a custom Windows box for several years and now use a Macbook Pro with no regrets.

As for the Schoeps-- a pair of MK21 caps will do 80% of everything you'll ever need to do. I would call it the "desert island" mic!

Rich

[Jay-]

I built my own close to the in shape but quad core. SL-3U-P4-965G-GA

The thing is a powerhouse. I keep it for production work, traveling.
Sure a dell XPS would work,


I guess im doing huge projects over 100min long including several video tracks so I need a big ass system.

One side note is you need a rack case that is BIG and thats a pain in the ass.

I have edited projects where a mac book client was unable to get his work done due to CPU speed. Plus I have 4 hard drives in this box the interior is massive.

A mac could work for 90% of the projects out there but a dedicated mobile box for extremely demanding projects could also be nice.

It all depends on what you NEED. For me a laptop would not work in so many ways and yes I lug this massive computer and its a pain in the ass but when I get setup its worth it. Also it kind of LOUD where a mac book would be near silent.

[videoteque]

I remember this friend of mine bought a rack PC so "I can take it anywhere". He lived in an attic, no lift and only the racked PC weighted like 20 kg (40 pounds)...

Go with a laptop for your own health!!!!

[pkautzsch]

The most versatile Schoeps cap is the MK6 (omni, cardioid, figure-eight - and all achieved with one single diaphragm, so it's a true pressure omni and a true gradient eight) - but it's also the most expensive one.
MK4 cardioid or MK21 wide cardioid are good universal mics, though sometimes you might like real omnis. You can get more caps later, though. Can't go wrong with Schoeps anyway, if you know where to place them. They'll tell you very clearly when they're in the wrong place, so don't think "I've got Schoeps, so it sounds good". Schoeps can sound terribly bad when not positioned carefully.
Neumann KM180 series is more forgiving to placement.

[sonare]

As a current owner of MK6 I cannot debate that in theory it is the most versatile, but if I were looking for one flavor of capsule to use for 80% of the stuff I could not recommend either this or the MK5. It is fine as the S in M-S.

The multi-pattern capsules are useful as secondary mics where you are covered regardless of how you want to use it, but neither the MK5 or 6 sound like the single-pattern versions, and neither are really ideal as mains, but if you really want to use the omnis for mains that will work better than the cardioid.

As a current user of the 2, 2S, 2H, 4, 5, 6 and 21 caps I stick to my original advice towards a pair of 21 as the best choice if you must restrict your self to only a pair at this point.

RIch

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by videoteque

I remember this friend of mine bought a rack PC so "I can take it anywhere". He lived in an attic, no lift and only the racked PC weighted like 20 kg (40 pounds)...

I did schlep around a DIY machine of this kind for quite a while. when sufficiently powerful laptops (and laptop based audio hardware) were beyond my financial reach. But now I'm quite glad I've got a reliable laptop...

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

Can't go wrong with Schoeps anyway, if you know where to place them. They'll tell you very clearly when they're in the wrong place, so don't think "I've got Schoeps, so it sounds good". Schoeps can sound terribly bad when not positioned carefully.

Tell me more... I've never owned or really used any Schoepses...


Daniel

[hughesmr]

+1 for the MK21. A stellar mic in every respect.

Hey, Rich!

[Jim vanBergen]

My first thought when I read the original post was, "OK, for desert island, I'd use & suggest an MK21, but I bet everyone will say MK2s or MK4." Wow, am I wrong!

I think the advice you have received --to get MK21 capsules-- is a GREAT starting point. If you have access to MK2 capsules, you will want to A/B to understand really how to utilize these capsules properly. And yes, they are different. The only thing similar is that they are both REALLY flat and accurate.

Cheers!

JvB

[Testing123]

Originally Posted by natibuck340

1) anyone ever tried using a rackmount pc like the ones on this website?

You'd probably not be able to have your equipment in the recording space with a rack mount PC - they can be LOUD. Perhaps that isn't an issue for where you usually are set up, but something to consider if you ever need to be in the same space.

-Keith

[natibuck340]

Thanks for all the great advice... so it sounds to me like the rackmount pc would only work if I were isolated from the recording situation b/c of the noise... which is the case maybe 20% of the time, so that was really helpful... also, with an investment like a Schoeps, i'd obviously get it insured, but regardless, are they like "pins and needles" mics... meaning if it isn't handled with the care of having a raw egg in your hand, it will be compromised... like what's the durability is guess what i'm asking... i mean, i know they aren't shure 58's, but can they handle a drop? my NT-4 handled one major drop no problems...
thanks guys,
- J

[natibuck340]

oh, and i forgot one more thin... also, I do alot of solo piano recording... do the mk21's (if placed properly) sound decent on solo piano when close mic'ed?
thanks,
- J

[XJR]

I started out with a laptop but built this rack mounted PC the cheap way, basically a Dell PC, Digi 001, ADA8000 and a folding monitor all in the same rack. The actual PC is rubber mounted onto a rack tray to ease vibration. Pic of it here :

http://www.thesuperheroesonline.co.uk/front2.jpg

So far it's done about 50 gigs with no problems at all. Harddrive has to be changed when full so the audiodrive is in a removable Dataexpress caddie. In terms of weight it is heavy but not hernia inducing ... no worse than a typical valve combo.

[tony666]

Concerning 19" PC's, Antec has the studio series. They are supposed to be quiet but IMO they're still not quite enough (you could install better coolers offcoarse). Quite heavy and not cheap but they do look nice

[Jim vanBergen]

They sound pretty wonderful both close, medium, and distant. MK21 is one of the best capsules to use if you HAVE to make a closed-lid recording and want less reflection, though that's WAY too close for 99% of classical recordings. I think you'll be incredibly happy with the sound.

Originally Posted by natibuck340

oh, and i forgot one more thin... also, I do alot of solo piano recording... do the mk21's (if placed properly) sound decent on solo piano when close mic'ed?
thanks,
- J

[pkautzsch]

I've seen German Broadcast assistants throw Schoepses into large plastic containers after a recording. The Nextel surface apparently doesn't like that treatment.

Daniel, what I meant with "can sound terribly bad if not placed right" is that there are mics like the KM183/KM184 which you put up where it looks like it sounds good, and it sounds at least "ok". With Schoeps, as with most other mics too, you need to find the spot by listening via your monitoring setup, as when you "just throw them up" it usually sounds awful. Actually the KM180 series is the exception in that they are quite forgiving to "about here" positioning.

[natibuck340]

Ok - you lost me there... so ruggedness scale of Schoepses on 1 to 10:
(1 being delicate ribbon, 5 being average, 10 being shure sm58)
that would be most helpful thanks!
- J

[santibanks]

Originally Posted by Jay-

A mac could work for 90% of the projects out there but a dedicated mobile box for extremely demanding projects could also be nice.

hello xserve !
Apple - Xserve

[kosi]

These guys build very massive housings, which you can configure yourself. You can drop em a mail, if you have questions:

http://www.da-x.de/PC-Audiosysteme/D...tor::9625.html

[pkautzsch]

On that 1-10 ruggedness scale, I'd guess 6 to 7 maybe.
I had one drop while suspending a temporary flying rig, about 8 ft, and no audible nor visible harm. Of course that depends on the angle it hits the ground. Wouldn't risk having them drowned in beer, if that's included in the SM58's "10".
The Colette extension tubes (RC-*) are very fragile though.

[Legacy]

Hi J,

I can't speak to the Schoeps question but you've gotten much good advice.

I've had a number of 'custom' PCs built over the years and run into a number of problems. Most rack mounted PC makers have no idea what 'music guys' need and just build you a server-type PC that will be REALLY REALLY noisy, heavy and not built anywhere near tough enough for the road. If you tell them what we need you'll get one that is only REALLY noisy, heavy, and has some card straps or feeble drive shockmounts etc.

Laptops solve many of these problems but if you need to use hardware cards I find the PCI extension systems to work short term at best.

Other than a laptop you're better off getting a purpose built Music PC that is made to be silent and custom configured for your software / hardware. This costs real money but if you expect a computer to work on location it's either build it yourself or spend the money.

Also if you plan to fly this sytem around make sure it can be carried on the plane. Just had FedEx *completely* trash my main recording system from inside a locked Pelican case with enough foam to make a small island in the pacific. The case seems to have survived...

Hope this helps,
Silas

[natibuck340]

Wow- thanks to all who replied... you have helped me so much... I decided that the 21's are going to be purchased for sure and I was assured that even in the quietest of circumstances, a 4u pc by superlogics will not make any audible noise... so, i'm starting a new thread on what my weakest link is in my music rackmount pc...
thanks!
- J

[Legacy]

Hi J,

I don't know anything about Superlogics so they may very well be the exception to the rule...However, I have been told exactly the same thing about 'no audible noise' so many times and been delivered computers that would still be audible in an iso cabinet...Just an old cynic talking but I've lost count. Make sure you ride them every step of the way. I've found powersupplies and cases by Antec to be considerably quieter than off the shelf stuff. Zalman makes a computer case that has NO fans inside at all - including the power supply. Its expensive and large but probably quiet.

Best,
Silas

[audibell]

Originally Posted by Legacy

Hi J,

I don't know anything about Superlogics so they may very well be the exception to the rule...However, I have been told exactly the same thing about 'no audible noise' so many times and been delivered computers that would still be audible in an iso cabinet...Just an old cynic talking but I've lost count. Make sure you ride them every step of the way. I've found powersupplies and cases by Antec to be considerably quieter than off the shelf stuff. Zalman makes a computer case that has NO fans inside at all - including the power supply. Its expensive and large but probably quiet.

Best,
Silas

I have had my own rack pcs built with and without pci cards. The key to quietness is steel case, zalman fans buried inside the case and low-speed cooling on the cpu. You can change the fans on power supplies, too and HDs can be mounted inside foam boxes; no fancy video card. I transfer the whole project file out to a USB drive while I'm striking the mics and don't use these computers for anything else. No ms-word, no internet, no nothing. If they didn't have a little green light on the front you couldn't tell they're on. The Zalman silent PC is indeed silent, my mastering guy has some. Trackball mouse and 15" LCD makes operation easy & mounted in a roll-around case with ups. Cheaper pre's have dual outputs so the unbalanced TS goes to a mxr for a 2-trk insurance DAT or H4. I find the sata drives hot and noisier than IDE baracudas and the Raptor's as hot and noisy as a coffee roaster. I only use them in editing machines. The loud fans and flimsy construction put me off laptops.
WT

[the247s]

Just to add my tuppence worth on the whole thing:

I know you were also keen to talk about the caps, and seem to have your mind set on the rack PC but I reckon you may get something from this:

I'm currently running a Carillon PC, that's built for musicians. It's exceptionally quiet, and has rubber foam feet for cushioning and is rackmountable. But it is very heavy. Because it is solid, it has fans and soft enclosures and is very much made of metal. turnkey in the uk do them. They run really well for a PC, and Carillon can even sort out your system on-line, if you are hooked up to the net, if you have problems.

But Windows really isn't a great Operating System and isn't that stable. I end up having to re-install the OS and programmes once every 18 months or more frequently. Which is a 'mare. Macs just have more stable and better programmed core software components (kernel). Any programmer will tell you this. And it means that Windows has temporary files and all sorts of rubbish hanging around that eventually clogs and slows your system down. I'm changing back to a Mac soon. Just fed up with PCs, although the build quality of the Carillon is great.

OK but there's always lap top or desktop macs and since I'm hoping to be doing some location stuff myself I thought I'd share my thoughts:

The advantage of any desktop/server computer is that you can use PCI/PCIe soundcards which can take more ins and outs than Firewire, and are more stable because of it. But of course they tend to be big! This is no small matter. In live situations a portastudio can be placed in awkward places sometimes, as can a laptop but a rackmounted PC with big chunky PCI interfaces will eat space, and then you have to find somewhere to balance the monitor etc

But on the plus when it comes to mixdown you have more juice and you can add mixcards like the Powercore or UAD-1. Of course you can also get hotswap drives and multidrives etc. So if you have a fleet of people helping and space then that's may be the way to go.

But consider the humble lappy:

On the laptop minus- Firewire can't carry as many inputs, and although there are firewire mix cards out there, once running hard disks and interfaces you don't really have the bandwidth spare. But I've found a way....(see later)

There are a lot of pluses to a laptop- they can be perched in useful places and the firewire cable can run to 1-3 units of rack, hopefully not too heavy, + a patchbay (I assume- so you don't ruin your expensive interface by plugging XLRs in and out all the time), which can be placed out of the way somewhere. So it's a good option to.. also mouse and keyboard- where do they go in live situations?

So I worked out how to get a really powerful laptop system that could do complex mix downs:

A fast as you like PowerMac /Apple lappy (some people say not to get the one with video camera for some reason- see other posts), get a Firewire 800 RME device, which has really good quality and you can expand up to 56 inputs or something silly, with ADAT. So you can add a Micstacy (RME) or Focusrite 8pre for added inputs, giving you plenty of inputs and outputs. Anyway by running your interface on a Firewire 800 it gives you room to use the Firewire 400 for an external harddrive of your favourite size and flavour (no more than 180GB probably or it won't work live well, + make sure it has a very fast seek time and a 7200rpm or hopefully 10,000+ rpm if you plan on doing 88.2kHz recordings).

Next to finally, PowerBooks/laptop Macs now have Expresscard 34/56 slots and UAD are doing an processor card specially for this slot. So you utilise all available ins and outs from the laptop (Firewire 800 and 400 and Expresscard 34/56, and get good quality mic pres and converters and get extra juice.

Finally...
If you run Reaper on a Mac X, when you mixdown and you want more juice at home maybe, add a Mac desktop, and link the two. As Reaper can off-load CPU stuff to networked computers, I think. This last point I will have to check, but I think it's called Reamote. If you run Logic then this definitely does this, its called running nodes. But I think you may need to connect via firewire between the computers for this. However, if you are going to do this you don't need the Expresscard 34 slot for the UAD and can add extra firewire ports with a converter to do this. See 1394store.com or somewhere like that.

Honestly, I think that's the best solution, and if I do a location recording (which I will be doing in very remote places) then that's what I is going to buy.

As to mics- I've got to confess that I was going to try to pin down a pair of Golden Age ribbons and treat them like the Queen of England, and a few pairs of something less shockable, but I haven't worked that out yet. If I work that out I'll let you know.

Are you still awake?

Best of lurk.
Matt
the247s
airplay
interchangeable head
music 4 muses