mixing violins and cellos

[lukas]

just wondering if anyone got experience with this

I recorded a violin player and a cello player - very good players and recorded them with 103 and km 84 through api preamps into 192

sounds great but if I mix them together the high mids get very strong (almost hurt in my ears) as more tracks of violin I add -I tried to eq them around 1k which makes it a bit better and I also made groups with differnt verbs to simulate kind of an orchestra but I still miss the warmth (I know violin and warmth seems like a joke...)

what about boosting low mids? how do you guys mix stuff like this? I heard from a producer friend that he often hi cut if he mix violins...!

unfortunately I did not have the time to experiment different miks and stuff because string players are kinda expensive...

what about 421, 441, royer and stuff on strings???

thx

[Sharp11]

Originally posted by lukas

sounds great but if I mix them together the high mids get very strong (almost hurt in my ears) as more tracks of violin I add -I tried to eq them around 1k which makes it a bit better and I also made groups with differnt verbs to simulate kind of an orchestra but I still miss the warmth (I know violin and warmth seems like a joke...)


thx

Overdubbing a single violin eight times will not sound like a section of eight players.

That's because eight violinists playing together are using different instruments with slightly different intonation, timing and phrasing. Also, the whole sound blends due to room and harmonic interaction. Also, don't forget, a group of 8 players would be spread across a certain space.

However, it can be made to sound pretty acceptable, but you'll have to try a lot of different combinations of individual eq and panning and then bussing of the whole section to a single verb. Since you're creating the illusion of a section, try to pretend it IS a section while you're mixing.

I've done this successfully, but it's not easy. I'd rather use a small group of players for each section, say 4,2 and 2 (violins, violas, and cellos) and then overdub. At least you get closer to a real section sound this way. Three passes gives you 12, 6 for the violins and violas, and two passes for cellos gives you four cellos, a good string balance for a studio session.Which, btw, is closer to the old -school string sounds on the Aretha records and such. In fact, often they'd just scratch the violas.

Of course, it also helps to know how to write for strings.

Ed

[lukas]

thx ed - I`ll try this

any other?

[lukas]

btw I did this with the string section as well but then I couldnt use the takes where 1 of them was out of tune...

2+2 means 2 violas and 2 cellos?

thats the nice thing about recording one after another!

[Musiclab]

another common trick is to add synths in with the real to fatten it up.
Like Ed says it helps alot if you know how to write for strings

[Sharp11]

Originally posted by lukas

2+2 means 2 violas and 2 cellos?

String arrangers will write string parts, then call for a range in number of players.

For instance, the typical symphonic orchestral string layout would be 1st and 2nd violins, violas, cellos and basses.

An arranger might offer this range of players: 12/12/16/10/5 that's 24 violins,16 violas, 10 cellos and 5 basses ( a really BIG string sound, btw).

The same arranger might say it's ok to reduce the number of strings to 8/8/6/4/2, a MUCH smaller string sound, obviously, but in a recording studio vs a sound stage (or film score), might be more acceptable, especially in a pop format. In fact, most pop records have used the smaller string approach for many years.

As an aside, some times the first and second violins are weighted a bit differently 8/8 might become 9/7 for greater emphasis on the first violins.

As Lou says, adding synths, especially good section samples, could be a good solution, too.

Ed

[toolstudio]

Hi,

for strings, especialy violins, cellos and contras, i always take our ribbons.

I mostly always use AEA 44c and R84s on strings and they fit great in the mix, no hurting no aggressive high (when you use cheaper violins).


wolfgang

toolhouse studios, germany

[lowswing]

toolstudio,
how do you get enough levels with ribbons on strings? i tried m160 and rca 77dx, it sounded great but even with 70db from my preamps i could get get enough clean gain to my DAW.
do you close mic? how far?
i alway take at least 3 feet from the player (an some times even much more like 8 feet) to get more natural sound without a mid range harshness.
thanks

[toolstudio]

Originally posted by lowswing
toolstudio,
how do you get enough levels with ribbons on strings? i tried m160 and rca 77dx, it sounded great but even with 70db from my preamps i could get get enough clean gain to my DAW.
do you close mic? how far?
i alway take at least 3 feet from the player (an some times even much more like 8 feet) to get more natural sound without a mid range harshness.
thanks

Hi lowswing,

the quality of the preamps is important.

I mostly use the Massenburg 4channel or the Avalon M5s on string instruments. I found that a clean preamp combines really good with the ribbon. I have a beyer M160, but haven used it in years (but have to, thanks for the reminder !).
Rarely I use the Neve 1064 or 1081, which also work, but sound a bit differnt when you come to the highest settings.


wolfgang

toolhouse studios, germany

[Froombosch]

I tried U-87 and KM-84 on violin and it did not work very well.

tutt

After EQ-ing some of the harsness out (8 k) 4-5 dB with eq4 Waves it worked. I guess I need a pair of M160's or a 121 for recording violin/strings better.

Will it worktogether with the Cransong spider I have as a preamp?

[enharmonic]

Originally posted by Musiclab
another common trick is to add synths in with the real to fatten it up.
Like Ed says it helps alot if you know how to write for strings

+1

I've used this trick a few times, and when done right it is a very good thing.

[lukas]

ok guys ribbon mics seem to work but what if you dont have a ribbon? they are too expensive to buy them just for strings...

no way to record strings with km84?? other mics?

[Froombosch]

Lukas,

A km-84 will work, but sometimes it just needs a pull back in the 6-8 k region. Or it will get too sharp.

[bloodstone]

I had excellent results using an AKG 414 BULS on violin. I was using the stock pres in a Tascam M 512. Oddly, the track was smooth and warm, not shrill.

[lukas]

Originally posted by bloodstone
I had excellent results using an AKG 414 BULS on violin. I was using the stock pres in a Tascam M 512. Oddly, the track was smooth and warm, not shrill.

details? how did you put the mic? eq?

[bloodstone]

Originally posted by lukas
details? how did you put the mic? eq?

I had the mic approx. 6-8" from the body, aimed somewhere in the vicinity of an f-hole near bridge area, slightly off axis, an inch or two above the body. I may have used Omni mode, can't remember. It was either cardioid or Omni. I always record flat, unless something is really bugging me about what I'm hearing. As I recall (it's been a while) when I mixed, I found the "sweet spot" in the frequency response of the track, and boosted it a little (sorry, can't quote the range, but I did it by sweeping the parametric dial on the mixer until I found a "musical" spot). The pres on that M512 are pretty warm, but they have no top end. Maybe that's why a mic famous for being too bright worked so well on an instrument that can be as shrill as a violin.