Best ORTF pair for live work?

[jnorman]

much of my work is moving toward remote 2-track live recordings of small acoustic ensembles, so i am rethinking my mic collection. i have owned pairs of DPA 4011s, schoeps cmc64s, akg c481s, royer r-121s, at4051s, gefell m300s, and many other SDCs. i have also owned a few LDCs, though gnerally have not made much use of them, always thinking that the off-axis response of SDCs would be a better approach for ORTF work.

however, after fooling around with a pair of AT4050s, i find that in many cases, i am getting a fatter, more open sound from the large capsules compared to the SDCs i am used to. so, i am considering purchaisng a pair of LDCs as my main stereo pair for this work. maybe i will go with at4050s, since they actually do sound pretty good to me, but i thought i would see what kind of opinions i might get from youse guys on this before i start throwing good money around.

the only consideration i might add in is that i dont think i want to move toward mics that are physically very large, like manley ref or brauners, or even U87s, as i do still need to keep my stage presence as visually non-obtrusive as i can. thanks for any thoughts on this.

[tenor39]

What can you afford? The DPA 4041 LDC is outstanding, but pricey. What kind of "sound" are you after?

[joelpatterson]

This may not be what you want to hear... but I keep being amazed at how much depth and texture I get with just two sets of mics, just four tracks. Commonly a set of SDC's on an ORTF bar [technically I prefer the Dutch NOS configuration but anyway] and then something like Groove Tubes GT 55's spaced wide, or CAD 350's, or anything really.

Either set by itself always sounds kind of "flattened" and one dimensional, even though it sounds "real" and all that. It seems like blending the two together gives you that "larger than life" thing we all strive for, a recording that sounds better than the music itself really actually did.

[roonsbane]

I second preferring the NOS over the ORTF. ORTF is a boring image in comparison and NOS sums to mono just about as well. 4050's can be great as well as KSM44's on the right music and acoustics.

Cameron

[jnorman]

thanks for the replies - i can afford almost anything, though i have already learned that just throwing a lot of money at mics (or pres) is not a problem solver. i have had just as good recordings with $500 worth of mics as i have had with $2500 worth of mics. i didnt really love the schoeps, and while i did really like the dpa 4011s, they were a tad clinical at times. i like the akg c481s and at4051s pretty well, but again, i am now at the point where i probably like the at4050s as much as anything i have used.

when you mention outriggers, are those GTs omnis, or does it really matter that much whether they are omnis or cards? i sort of agree with you about blending mics - i've done that quite a bit in the studio blending mics at various distances and acheived a fuller more robust sound than any of them alone.

[tINY]

Small bodied LDC for low volume recording....

Audix SCX-25 is fairly small with an internal shock mount - not real directional, but it has the typical LDC frequency dependancies.

The Gefell UMT70s looks pretty clasic LDC and looks good (and small). The M930 is even smaller, but it's single pattern and the directivity looks better controlled than classic LDC (though it gets beamy in the high freqs).

The Oktava 101 and 102 look interesting. The 102 has a non-traditional configuration, but a more traditional polar-frequency response.

How deep are your pockets?





-tINY

[joelpatterson]

The GT's are card's. Huge range from lows to highs-- class A-- it all reinforces my subliminal belief that the way to really capture something is to place a ring of mics around it, isn't that the way holographs are done, you are seeing the "interference" between all the separate sources recording the phenomena?

[hughesmr]

Schoeps MK21 in wide ORTF. Best of both worlds.

[boojum]

You might want to check out the Williams paper on Stereophonic Zoom at Rycote (http://www.rycote.com/assets/documen...nic%20Zoom.pdf)

This article is helpful in determining angle and separation between mics on the basis of soundstage width. I have used it and am very happy with it. The least it will offer is a good starting point requiring only minimal adjustment after initial placement.

It will also make clear why some arrays work where others do not. Check it out.

Cheers

[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by tenor39

What can you afford? The DPA 4041 LDC is outstanding, but pricey. What kind of "sound" are you after?

The 4041 with the tube body is nothing short of amazing. Just wish I could afford a pair.

A couple thoughts:

For ORTF, just got a pair of the new Sennheiser 8040's which show much promise. I have a piano session next week where I'll use them. I'll post samples in the Sennheiser 8000 thread.

You may want to consider going to a 3 point array- mains and flanks. You'll find that adding a pair of omnis will give you a great sense of depth and spaciousness that a normal ORTF pair won't give you. The ORTF will keep the image while the flanks will open things up.

Another vote for the MK21 Schoeps. Probably my favorite capsule. I find that a standard ORTF is a bit narrow of a pair for them, though. I usually go to about 12-14" instead. Certainly a great mic, though.

--Ben

[tenor39]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

The 4041 with the tube body is nothing short of amazing. Just wish I could afford a pair.

Wait till you hear the 4041S with a Forssell HV preamp! I never found the "T" to be all that great, mainly because it's pentode based (needs the gain stage). Now if it was triode based... YMMV.

[fifthcircle]

Only used it once, but I absolutely fell in love with it. I used it for the tenor soloist in the Berlioz Requiem that I recorded at the Sydney Opera House some years back... (Fun recording a massive ensemble (a gig report)) Even through the somewhat limited pres we had (just a Spirit 828 console), it sounded amazing. I'm sure it going through a Forsell pre would sound great.

--Ben

[Plush]

Best ORTF pair in my opinion is the Schoeps MSTC64. It is an ORTF stereo mic of top pedigree.

[Jim vanBergen]

I second the DPA 4041s as I find them phenomenal, but in spaced configuration, not ORTF.

and...now I have GOT to the hear the Schoeps that Plush mentioned!!! (I'll never be done buying mics, will I?)

[Dan]

Wow, I was really thinking 4011s, or CMC64s, so if you find something better, let us know!

Maybe Schoeps 222s?

[fifthcircle]

That stereo mic is quite cool... One of my colleagues here in town owns one. Basically a fixed ORTF mic. Get the Schoeps sound of a CMC6MK4 pair in a ORTF configuration that will always be correct.

SCHOEPS ortf-stereo

Makes setup and teardown a breeze.

--Ben

[Fred]

+3 on the DPA 4041... T or S. Can't say about the 4041SP.

I use the T ALOT, and the S not as often. Always as spaced pair, and ALWAYS through my own preamp/power supply. If you've only used the 4041 with the HMA4000/5000 pre/ps, then IMO you really haven't heard what that mic sounds like.

For ORTF or X/Y I always use the DPA 4011 and I think that mic used that way is great. I've tried the MK4/CMC6 combo, but it didn't work as well as the 4011 pair.

YMMV.

[ghellquist]

I run a Schoeps MSTC64. Really nice and easy to set up. For simple recordings it goes into a Sound Devices 722, not bad. When coupled to Milleni HV3D + Lavry Blue it becomes really good. All according to my uneducated ears though.

Gunnar

[Dan]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

That stereo mic is quite cool... One of my colleagues here in town owns one. Basically a fixed ORTF mic. Get the Schoeps sound of a CMC6MK4 pair in a ORTF configuration that will always be correct.

SCHOEPS ortf-stereo

Makes setup and teardown a breeze.

--Ben

You gotta love the tribble windjammers.

[hakanai]

i do alot of small classical ensemble work with a good friend of mine and he loves his schoeps, and actually he has 4050's as well that see alot of action but have never seen them on the main pair. occasionally however i'll do one of these gigs with my gear and have had alot of good results with my Gefell Umt 70s pair. the figure 8 isn't for everything but the cardioid and omni are great.

[studio1117]

1 thing to remember that I always bring up the 4050 is not a true LDC more of MDC. I think that's why so many people seem to like them for orchestral work. They have a warmth that most SDC's don't have.

[Thom]

I do not do a great deal of ORTF recordings, but I have loved my KM84 until I sold them...big mistake. But, that's another story.

The Sennheiser 8000 show a great deal of promise. I intend on using them on a recording of the Bach Cello Suites in the New Year, so I will post my experiences then.

[glassmaster]

Back when I used to do a fair amount of location classical recording, I used to use a pair of Neumann TLM-170s in ORTF - worked well for string quartets.

[MichaelPatrick]

I have a similar quest and do similar recording. Though it's not ORTF, I'm eying the Josephson 700S series. It uses two C12 type capsules plus a smaller omni capsule. With the three outputs you can mix out any patterns you want, even 5.1.

I like the idea of getting that bigger sound you're talking about, and being able electronically steer the pattern -- zoom-in, feature hall ambiance, etc, all during mix down.