Faure Requiem 2 mic recording

[tenor39]

Sometimes simpler is better. (2)DPA 4041's on a Forssell pre in A-B omni recorded in a large Catholic Cathedral. Boys & men with organ. Listen for the doubled low pedal note at the end. Merry Christmas to all!

[thenewyear]

Beautiful recording. A good performance on the whole too. You could have done a little mastering-for-the-web though, I had to crank my o/p.

[Plush]

I'm liking it too. Nice work!

Clearly the mics were in the right place for a nice atmospheric pick-up.

[tenor39]

Originally Posted by thenewyear

Beautiful recording. A good performance on the whole too. You could have done a little mastering-for-the-web though, I had to crank my o/p.

Yeah, I'll try and fix that today. Sorry about that. Thanks for the positive feedback, guys. I spend most of my time in setup positioning the mic's. I have a stereo wireless combo that I use during rehearsal to move things around with my cans on.

[Thom]

Beautiful recording. Proper mic placement is key.

Is this for release or a private recording?

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by tenor39

Yeah, I'll try and fix that today. Sorry about that. Thanks for the positive feedback, guys. I spend most of my time in setup positioning the mic's. I have a stereo wireless combo that I use during rehearsal to move things around with my cans on.

Mike, what a cracker, lovely recording and performance. The bass gives me goosies. And what a great idea about the stereo wireless cans to assist with positioning. Tell us more about this, what devices are involved.

[tenor39]

Originally Posted by Thom

Beautiful recording. Proper mic placement is key.

Is this for release or a private recording?

It was a live concert I recorded about 3 years ago. I just happen to dig it out when I was going through my sacred choral music files. It's the Hereford (England) Cathedral Choir when they were on tour in the States. It was actually a large Episcopal Cathedral, not a Catholic church (my bad).

[JP66]

sounds really nice.

[tenor39]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

Mike, what a cracker, lovely recording and performance. The bass gives me goosies. And what a great idea about the stereo wireless cans to assist with positioning. Tell us more about this, what devices are involved.

Thanks, David. I use a Garwood In Ear Monitoring (IEM) system. It's intended to be used in place of floor wedges for performers and it has great fidelity for an RF system. The receiver has a 1/8" stereo jack on it and enough juice to power even my Grados. It comes in handy when you're by yourself and need to position mic's.

[thenewyear]

Yeah, I'll try and fix that today. Sorry about that.

No big deal, it's obvious the level will be perfect within the context of a whole disc.

The mics and pres really shine here but your placement strategy also sounds very clever. I might have to start doing something like that myself.

[Thom]

Originally Posted by tenor39

It was a live concert I recorded about 3 years ago. I just happen to dig it out when I was going through my sacred choral music files. It's the Hereford (England) Cathedral Choir when they were on tour in the States. It was actually a large Episcopal Cathedral, not a Catholic church (my bad).

Thanks for the info, Mike.

I, too, like the idea of the wireless in-ear. I may have to try that myself.

Thom

[d_fu]

Hate to disagree here, but while I think the spacious sound of the recording as such is quite pleasing and all, I find that the organ is clearly underrepresented... It becomes a kind of diffuse cloud of sound in the distant background, at the expense of musical detail. The organ's soft ostinato phrase in this particularly beautiful piece and the way it interacts with the choir is lost almost completely.

Daniel

[thenewyear]

hmmm, is this a new GS phenomenon? Choral standards recording shoot-outs?

I think Mike stated he only had a single pair to work with and given that I think the choices he made at this session were the right ones.

Your recording is also very nice but unfortunately you weren't blessed with musicians of quite as a high calibre as Mike was.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by thenewyear

Choral standards recording shoot-outs?

I don't see this as a shootout. But there seems to be a certain intolerance against any statement other than "Wow, what a great recording..." on your part. This is a discussion forum, remember? I find the organ musically underrepresented in this particular piece. And I was trying to illustrate that without the organ spot, it would have been the same in my recording. If you disagree on a technical/musical level, let me know. But please don't just attack me for stating an opinion and providing an example of my personal preference.

I think Mike stated he only had a single pair to work with

I don't see where he said so. I understood it was a matter of choice.

Anyway, what's with this apparent phobia against deviating opinions that you seem to have?

Your recording is also very nice but unfortunately you weren't blessed with musicians of quite as a high calibre as Mike was.

Now what exactly are you trying to tell me with this statement? That I have no right to comment, let alone criticize because the musicians who hired me may not have performed quite as well as those who hired him? I see...

[thenewyear]

I don't have a phobia against expressing differing opinions. I expressed mine above to which you took umbrage. I also complimented your recording.

This is the last post I will make in this thread.

Have a nice day.

[tenor39]

Hmmm... well, Daniel, I actually did only have that pair of mic's that day, as that is all the conductor would allow. As with all things in life, preferences will vary depending on the person. I struck the best balance for me in that church, on that day, with those mic's.

I wasn't offering the recording as a definitive reference, only something that touched me and was made using simple techniques, and I wanted to share it. If you have constructive comments to make, I'm all for it, though I think putting the clip of your own recording in the thread is a bit much.

With that said, I hope you and yours have a joyous Christmas. Merry Christmas to all!

[taturana]

while i agree the organ could be a litlle more defined, the vocals sound absolutely beautiful! congratulations and merry xmas!

[d_fu]

Mike,

Originally Posted by tenor39

I wasn't offering the recording as a definitive reference,

Well, you said "simpler is better", and I respectfully disagreed, with what I consider a good reason. You didn't just post this as a nice piece of music. A good deal of the particular magic of this piece is lost if the organ isn't very clearly audible, as far as I'm concerned. Whether or not the choice of a two-mic setup was yours or somebody else's is more or less irrelevant. And I'm sure the rest of the recording is well-balanced, it's just this piece which I believe would have profited significantly from using more than two mics. But that's just an opinion.

If you have constructive comments to make, I'm all for it, though I think putting the clip of your own recording in the thread is a bit much.

I wanted to illustrate my comments with an acoustic example. Those who don't know the piece won't know what I'm talking about otherwise. I fail to understand why you take offence, but so be it... I've removed it. Maybe I should have posted a Dutoit clip...
I personally would not have minded an alternative point of view in the form of recording being posted to one of my threads, even if it involves certain criticism. And I'm sure it's been done here before elsewhere.

Sorry for not having joined in with another comment of the lovey-dovey "what a great recording" variety. Shame on me for thinking this was a discussion group. But people often seem to take offence mainly with the fact that different opinions or even subtle criticism are being voiced in the first place, rather than discuss these opinions in a matter-of-fact way.

Daniel

[tenor39]

Brother, I wasn't offended, I was simply pointing out the facts of the recording. What I actually said was "sometimes simpler is better". I wasn't looking for some kind of "love fest". I'm grateful that some of the people I respect on GS thought well of it.

I must say, though, that in all the times I've posted recording samples on this forum that you have never had a single positive thing to say. In fact, you seem to go out of your way to be negative, and not just with me. I try to find the good and not so good in all things that I hear and then point out what I think is appropriate. I think the word I'm looking for is "tact". Your comments would be taken to mind a lot more if you used some.

[Roland]

Personally I think there is a lot of difference between a performance of a choral piece with choir, orchestra and organ, and the same piece performed by a choir accompanied by an organ. Couple with the fact the organ stops are quite different tonally (a factor no amount of spots are going to change) it's not exactly comparing oranges with oranges. I personally liked both recordings, Mike was blessed with better singers, daniel had the benefit of an orchestra, Your spot on the organ Daniel, worked quite well, but more often spotting organs is difficult and/or fruitless due to the nature of the instrument. I did love the sound and perspective of the choir on Mikes recording and was interested to hear the 4041's used to such good effect, I tried them several years ago alongside 4006's and wasn't particularly struck with them personally, in Mikes recording I think they shine.

Regards


Roland

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by tenor39

I must say, though, that in all the times I've posted recording samples on this forum that you have never had a single positive thing to say.

I think I've never commented on any of your recordings so far, but that's not because I had nothing (positive) to say. It's because I simply never visit the "Work in Progress" forum, in which you've posted most of these. When I post samples, I post them here, because they are specifically for this forum, and I don't want to post them between tons of home-recorded pop songs... So I didn't comment because I simply never saw that (and what) you posted...

I also don't really see much sense in posting comments like this one... If a recording is just "nice", I'd rather not post anything than a meaningless comment.

When I do post, I tend to be rather straightforward, I'll admit that.

In fact, you seem to go out of your way to be negative, and not just with me. I try to find the good and not so good in all things that I hear and then point out what I think is appropriate.

I believe that's what I did. I pointed out the pleasing overall sound, but could not help feel a major drawback (IMHO), which BTW you've not commented upon... The entire discussion is about the fact that criticism was uttered, not about the issue of this criticism. This is quite strange, I must say, but it's not the first time I observe this here.

I would certainly prefer to be told quite specifically about issues of this kind in my recordings (even with audio examples that show different approaches) than to receive unspecific praise of the above mentioned variety.

And to have people "go out of their way" to comment on recordings posted here is part of what this place is all about, is it not? Anyhow, if you so wish, I shall refrain from commenting on your recordings altogether in the future. But "Sheherazade" really does sound good... SO does 9th Street.

Daniel

[Plush]

d fu the super tonmeister!

We bow before you with our stained hands asking forgiveness. For we lowly acolytes of sound are not worthy to adjust your jock. INstead we languish afar; waiting with baited breath for words from your dominion. For only may your word sanctify and only your word will cleanse us.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by Plush

d fu the super tonmeister!
We bow before you with our stained hands asking forgiveness. For we lowly acolytes of sound are not worthy to adjust your jock. INstead we languish afar; waiting with baited breath for words from your dominion. For only may your word sanctify and only your word will cleanse us.

Funny, I was half expecting a comment like that... Great. If you have nothing to say in the matter itself, try some cheap personal attacks. Worth quoting, lest you decide to delete it later.

Your own comment on this recording didn't go beyond a noncommital "nice atmospheric pick-up". Considering how long you've been in the business, that is surprising. Or is it just a polite euphemistic way of saying that you consider a recording to be kinda nice, but actually way below your own professional standards?

Come on man, prove me wrong. Tell me that the organ in this piece does not need to be heard any more clearly than it is heard here. And tell me why you think so. I'm sure you've recorded the Fauré requiem at some point in your career....

"Lovey-Dovey" really needs to be added to the name of this forum, methinks.

Daniel

[Chucho]

Originally Posted by Plush

d fu the super tonmeister!

We bow before you with our stained hands asking forgiveness. For we lowly acolytes of sound are not worthy to adjust your jock. INstead we languish afar; waiting with baited breath for words from your dominion. For only may your word sanctify and only your word will cleanse us.

thanks for your input but a bit of obverse opinion is quite refreshing.

[tenor39]

Originally Posted by d_fu

Come on man, prove me wrong. Tell me that the organ in this piece does not need to be heard any more clearly than it is heard here.

"Lovey-Dovey" really needs to be added to the name of this forum, methinks.

Daniel

Need to and able to are 2 different issues. In my situation I did the best with the circumstances that were presented to me. "Live" is never an optimal experience. Beauty is in the eye (or the ear), Daniel, and I actually think the subtleness of the organ's power adds to the etherial quality of the sound.

If you wanted to offer a critique aimed at helping another engineer improve their sound, I have no problem with that. But you come across as though you have it all nailed down. I am quite open to helpful suggestions, but the manner in which you criticize is the issue, I think. Make useful proposals and I'll entertain them. That's what I'm looking for on this forum, not people with an axe to grind.

Thoughtful and courteous opinions are always listened to, at least by me. I'm not looking for everyone to applaud my effort, rather to stimulate and enhance the experience of recording and sound. It's not about being "right", my friend.

[d_fu]

Mike,

Originally Posted by tenor39

Beauty is in the eye (or the ear), Daniel, and I actually think the subtleness of the organ's power adds to the etherial quality of the sound.

I stand by (personal and subjective) impression - the organ ostinato's interaction with the choir is essential here, and some of that is lost...

If you wanted to offer a critique aimed at helping another engineer improve their sound, I have no problem with that. But you come across as though you have it all nailed down.

Sorry if it came across that way, but it wasn't meant to be. My sample wasn't intended to say "This is how it's done", but "This is what I believe is being underrepresented". How else can I show that than by demonstrating the musical detail I am referring to, esp. for those who don't know the piece. I could have chosen the Dutoit recording (Decca), but for copyright reasons, I took a recording from my collection.

It's not about being "right", my friend.

I don't think I claimed absolute truth... Did I? But it's my favorite piece in the Fauré requiem, and I find something's missing here... Sorry, can't put in any other way.

Best,
Daniel

[d_fu]

Roland,
I somehow overlooked your constructive posting.

Originally Posted by Roland

Personally I think there is a lot of difference between a performance of a choral piece with choir, orchestra and organ, and the same piece performed by a choir accompanied by an organ. Couple with the fact the organ stops are quite different tonally (a factor no amount of spots are going to change) it's not exactly comparing oranges with oranges.

You're right in principle, but I would think that in this particular case, the orchestra doesn't make much of a difference, it doesn't actually do that much. What I am referring to is the organ's pattern, which is essentially the same in both concerts, regardless of registration.

Your spot on the organ Daniel, worked quite well, but more often spotting organs is difficult and/or fruitless due to the nature of the instrument.

True, but in this case I even had to take the rather extreme measure of spotting inside the organ, as certain sounds would have been lost otherwise.

I did love the sound and perspective of the choir on Mikes recording and was interested to hear the 4041's used to such good effect, I tried them several years ago alongside 4006's and wasn't particularly struck with them personally, in Mikes recording I think they shine.

Never worked with DPAs, much less owned any.


Daniel

[scifijedi]

sounded like a spring rain to me............i found the female choirs resonating diminuendos were picked up very well.......when the low male choir came in they sounded like an organ for a second......subtly awesome...a blowy breeze........i think too much more emphasis on the organ/orchestra might have taken some shine out of the choir..........2 mics...........sounds sweet........couldn't be better.....just different........

[Thom]

Originally Posted by d_fu

Hate to disagree here, but while I think the spacious sound of the recording as such is quite pleasing and all, I find that the organ is clearly underrepresented... It becomes a kind of diffuse cloud of sound in the distant background, at the expense of musical detail. The organ's soft ostinato phrase in this particularly beautiful piece and the way it interacts with the choir is lost almost completely.

Daniel

Daniel,

Let me first say that I mean no disrepect to anyone on the forum. Yes, this is a discussion forum. And, yes this is a place for all of to learn and share. But, I do not think that all of this is unwarranted in a public forum. Mike simply wanted to share a beautiful piece of music, recorded in a minimalistic format.

I did not get to hear your recording. But, I do respect your difference in opinion. I think for a two mic recording Mike's sounded very nice. We do unfortunately suffer from limitations provided by the director of ensembles and we have to abide. Mike did a beautiful job with his two mic array.

I agree with you the organ ostinato is a wonderful section of this piece. Do I think there could be more? Well, I have heard several recordings where it differs. This truly is a case of "beauty is in the ear of the beholder." Some of the recordings I have heard neglect it entirely, while others pronounce it more.

I think that this particular recording truly does shine in the 2 mic form it was captured.

Again, I mean no disrepect.

Thom

[videoteque]

I am quite open to helpful suggestions

Mike, you should have moved the organ nearer to the mics...

I am just starting at location recording, so my opinion is probably useless, BUT I think we should encourage/promote discussion, not in a mac/pc debate way, in a constructive way. We could still be living in caverns and hunting mamooths for living, if humans didn't try to improve their lives. That we improved or not may be discussed...

Daniel is probably young, german and says what he thinks in a more direct way than some may be used. We are all from differents parts of the world, we have to find what glues us together and build upon it!!!

Location recording is difficult because you can't do what you want, or what is needed always. But is beautiful because musicians are performing for public and they have their minds focused. It's a balance like everything else in life. Peace and love, brothers!