Faure Requiem 2 mic recording

[brle]

Originally Posted by d_fu

What I am referring to is the organ's pattern, which is essentially the same in both concerts, regardless of registration.

True, but registration is very important for this piece (G. Faure was organist himself), because just one organ stop can extremly change whole dynamics and character of the sound. In Mike´s recording organ is really really soft (IMO also way to soft) and for only purpose of choir´s accompaniment and in orchestral version organ is treated more as an soloist instrument. BTW in your version Daniel, organ player picked up some high stops so it sounds very sharp and a octave higher which is unusual.
Nevertheless, both versions are well recorded, unfortunately with drunk organ players like this one: YouTube - Faure in paradisum
.

[Plush]

I'll respond by saying that I believe that Tenor 39's recording is how it actually sounded in the room. This was not a session, it was a live recording and I, for one, happen to believe that good engineers (they are sincere in their effort to make a good recording) do the best that they can on THAT GIVEN DAY at THAT venue.

Two mic recordings are cinema verite. They tell the acoustic story with good and bad.

It's an appealing recording with an ethereal atmosphere. Have any of you been to Saint-Sulpice or La Madeleine in Paris where Faure worked and performed? It is similar to the acoustic here.

As for d fu, he takes himself seriously indeed, thus eliciting my supplicant blast.
He wants the recording to be optimized. That's fine if you have time and can do exactly what you want. That is not the point of a two mic recording. A two mic recording is an aural photograph of the sound happening.

I myself am assembling a super retro all tube recording set-up to use only two M49 tube mics. The recording chain will not use any transistors. A Fetishist's pursuit no doubt! This is my answer for good sound in the new century.

Merry Christmas to All
Happy Holidays to All

Eat, drink and be merry!

[videoteque]

This is my answer for good sound in the new century.

I would love to hear the results!!!!!

[Thom]

Originally Posted by Plush

I myself am assembling a super retro all tube recording set-up to use only two M49 tube mics. The recording chain will not use any transistors. A Fetishist's pursuit no doubt! This is my answer for good sound in the new century.

Merry Christmas to All
Happy Holidays to All

Eat, drink and be merry!

This is my dream as well. Hopefully, someday. It is good to know that I am not the only one who is thinking in retro frame of mind.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to All.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by Plush

I'll respond by saying that I believe that Tenor 39's recording is how it actually sounded in the room. (...)
Two mic recordings are cinema verite. They tell the acoustic story with good and bad. (...)
A two mic recording is an aural photograph of the sound happening.

If that were the case, we'd never need spot mics in the first place... But life isn't that easy, microphones just don't hear the same way ears do, and being there and not being there also makes a difference.

See Benjamin's post (#8) in this thread, which sums it up perfectly IMHO, and saves me some typing...

Another quote I like is pkautzsch's "spot microphones in recordings do what our eyes do in the concert" (not literally quoted).


Daniel

[Roland]

Originally Posted by d_fu

If that were the case, we'd never need spot mics in the first place... But life isn't that easy, microphones just don't hear the same way ears do, and being there and not being there also makes a difference.

See Benjamin's post (#8) in this thread, which sums it up perfectly IMHO, and saves me some typing...

Another quote I like is pkautzsch's "spot microphones in recordings do what our eyes do in the concert" (not literally quoted).


Daniel

But Daniel, most of us here know that, you are "stating the bleedin' obvious". There are few if any perfect recordings, just as there are few perfect performances. As an example of a live two mic, two track recording it sounds great, I, myself, have on occasions been able to get away with two mics, often I use more, I enjoy the thrill of capturing something simply, though I'm not dogmatic about it and as far as I know Mike isn't either. His recording is a good example of capturing a live event with a simple pair, well, when other options were not open to him. Being a pro in this game is as much about attitude as it is about sound.

Regards


Roland

A Happy Christmas to you all!

[aracu]

Having that organ sound like it's in the distance helps to create the sense of wide open space in the recording. Even a subtle feeling of suspense. Then when the bass pokes through slightly...

I would have liked to have listened to the comparison but it looks like the file was removed.

[sonare]

To steer this discussion back in a more edifying direction--

Mike, since you are in Orlando am I correct in assuming this was at St Luke's? As I recall the organ is in a rear gallery there. Was the visiting choir in the rear gallery or on the chancel steps where they could be SEEN? This detail might be of interest in the current discussion.

Another factor here is that in situations like this there is RARELY time for a complete rehearsal-- simply get the choir somewhat adjusted to today's acoustic and then see what happens in performance. Certainly not time to see if the organist's educated registration guesses are spot-on. And this is a MONSTER of a piece to accompany on organ.

If the choir and organ were at opposite ends of the building then the "correct" registrational balance will only happen at one point in the nave, and that may or may not be where the mics are.

Rich

[Testing123]

There are recordings that when I hear them my first thought is not "where are the mics", or "I wonder what processing was used". I just get lost in the music and my only thought is - "wow!"

This is one of those recordings. If it was on a CD I would order it immediately!

Argue all you want about the organ, I think the vocals are amazing, and the atmospherics (including the organ, for me) seem to fit the title perfectly.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by Testing123

Argue all you want about the organ, I think the vocals are amazing, and the atmospherics (including the organ, for me) seem to fit the title perfectly.

Well, yes, but since you don't know the piece, you don't know what's missing... You're kinda listening to a band with the guitar half muted... Will repost my sample in another thread of mine in a day or two, if Mike doesn't mind.


Daniel

[Testing123]

Originally Posted by d_fu

Well, yes, but since you don't know the piece, you don't know what's missing...

I can't argue with that... looking forward to hearing another take. I missed yours when it was briefly posted before.

[tenor39]

Originally Posted by sonare

To steer this discussion back in a more edifying direction--

Mike, since you are in Orlando am I correct in assuming this was at St Luke's? As I recall the organ is in a rear gallery there. Was the visiting choir in the rear gallery or on the chancel steps where they could be SEEN? This detail might be of interest in the current discussion.

Another factor here is that in situations like this there is RARELY time for a complete rehearsal-- simply get the choir somewhat adjusted to today's acoustic and then see what happens in performance. Certainly not time to see if the organist's educated registration guesses are spot-on. And this is a MONSTER of a piece to accompany on organ.

If the choir and organ were at opposite ends of the building then the "correct" registrational balance will only happen at one point in the nave, and that may or may not be where the mics are.

Rich

Rich, you are correct that the recording was done in St. Luke's Episcopal Cathedral in Orlando. The organ is, indeed, in a loft in the rear of the church, which makes any sort of balance difficult given that the choir was in front of the altar and a great distance from it.

Daniel, I happen to agree that the organ could be more prominent, but given the building and the limitations laid out by the director I struck the best compromise that I could on that day.

To everyone else, I really appreciate the comments, both positive and not. I never intended this thread to start the sort of argument that has ensued, but that's the internet. Unfortunately, I rarely get the chance to have others hear my work, and I would guess that this is the reality for most of us toiling in "location land". I post things here to get feedback from folks that have the ears and experience to appreciate them, which my clients rarely do. That is a sad commentary on the state of things, but there it is. It has made me want to leave this field more than once, as I try to get the best sound that I can mainly for my own enjoyment. Oh, well...

[aracu]

Faure is one of the most interesting composers, the music is so straightforward
and sincere, yet has an extra undefinable religious quality. It's paradoxical that some of the greatest music in the Western tradition, including modernist music such as Messiaen and Penderecki, has been based on a Christian belief system, which has also caused and continues cause overwhelming and irreversible cultural damage in the world. I have seen places in South America where the traditional cultures to this day have been forced to migrate to seemingly uninhabitable remote mountain tops due to their land being constantly stolen from them, with a constant pressure to conform their religious beliefs to Christianity. The trillion dollar war in Irak is also fueled by something similarly related.

[tenor39]

Originally Posted by aracu

Faure is one of the most interesting composers, the music is so straightforward
and sincere, yet has an extra undefinable religious quality. It's paradoxical that some of the greatest music in the Western tradition, including modernist music such as Messiaen and Penderecki, has been based on a Christian belief system, which has also caused and continues cause overwhelming and irreversible cultural damage in the world. I have seen places in South America where the traditional cultures to this day have been forced to migrate to seemingly uninhabitable remote mountain tops due to their land being constantly stolen from them, with a constant pressure to conform their religious beliefs to Christianity. The trillion dollar war in Irak is also fueled by something similarly related.

So, what exactly does your anti-religious political rant have to do with the recording? How is it that a Requiem Mass has an "extra undefinable religious quality"? Take this nonsense to the appropriate forum thread, which this is definitely NOT.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by tenor39

Unfortunately, I rarely get the chance to have others hear my work, and I would guess that this is the reality for most of us toiling in "location land". I post things here to get feedback from folks that have the ears and experience to appreciate them, which my clients rarely do.

As for myself, I'd not only be willing to tolerate, but in fact encourage other remotesters to post clips here rather than in the Work in Progress forum. I practically never visit WIP, and I don't really feel like picking acoustic/classical samples from the flood of rock/pop/hiphop/whatever stuff.

Daniel

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by brle

Nevertheless, both versions are well recorded, unfortunately with drunk organ players like this one: YouTube - Faure in paradisum
.

Ouch.... The choir in this one is quite, errr, special, too...

Anyhow, here's a better version (and another one) which illustrates what I'm referring to - the organ's ostinato pattern. I'll leave it at that, and not post mine again. If anyone is particularly interested, PM me...


Daniel

[sonare]

Originally Posted by aracu

Faure is one of the most interesting composers, the music is so straightforward
and sincere, yet has an extra undefinable religious quality. It's paradoxical that some of the greatest music in the Western tradition, including modernist music such as Messiaen and Penderecki, has been based on a Christian belief system, which has also caused and continues cause overwhelming and irreversible cultural damage in the world. I have seen places in South America where the traditional cultures to this day have been forced to migrate to seemingly uninhabitable remote mountain tops due to their land being constantly stolen from them, with a constant pressure to conform their religious beliefs to Christianity. The trillion dollar war in Irak is also fueled by something similarly related.

Aside from the South American sidetrip-- has it occurred to you that rather than ironical that it might be intrinsic in the extreme that much of the music in the canon of Western art is a result of the "Crhistian belief system"?

Rich

[audibell]

Ah, we were going so well to get back to the more edifying parts of the discussion and then it dissolved into religious schism - I remember a time when gentlemen never discussed politics, religion or women out of a gentle regard for their fellows' feelings.
However, I have sung this music a few times and recorded it twice. Mike's recording of the well-practiced singers is lovely and Daniel(?)'s suggestion that the organ is too low is quite right, if I had been singing I might have had trouble - Rich's very keen ear noticed that the organ was at one end and the choir at the altar, which is, of course, what many of us have to deal with, less than perfect conditions. Timing is also an issue for choirs singing on the altar accompanied by an organist in the loft 250 feet away. I was not disappointed by the tone of the discussion; let us disagree, agreeably. How was the Libera Me, which is almost an organ bariton duet, did they stay in time with the distance issue?
WT

[aracu]

Recording is not separate from music, which is not separate from content and cultural associations. Religion and Christianity are not two interchangeable words with the same meaning. The sacred history of Christanity projects a hazardous future.