Classical Piano - Pre Shopping

[PT6.7UZR]

I’m a pianist, not a sound engineer.
I'm deciding between a stand-alone pre or an all-in-one unit with EQ etc.

I finally got my dream piano, a new Bluethner concert grand.
I play classical only, mostly Bach, Ravel, Chopin, Mozart.

With potentially bad acoustics I bought a pair of new AKG 414 LTDs for the flexibility of patterns.
I'm don't trust my expertise enought to buy used mics, and could not afford better mics for now, besides I got them for a good price, 800 each and their graphs look like a matched pair.

(I also sing and play acoustic guitar, - James Taylor-type stuff)
The piano room is about 600 sq ft with 8.5 ft ceilings, hardwood floors on a raised foundation and walls are that old 1920s hard lath and plaster.
There are several heavy rugs with padding and a huge bookcase on the wall opposite the piano.

Gear:
iMac 1.6 GHz PowerPC G5, 2 GB RAM, Mac OS 10.3.9, ProTools LE v6.7, original MBox
2 AKG C 414 LTD mics (the flatter 414)
2 Sennheiser MD 441 mics
Mackie HR824s

I realize the Focusrite pres in the original MBox can’t be that good.
I read here Millennia HV-3c is a great pre for classical piano, but is it a good match for the 414s in terms of noise floor and max output?

Here’s a link to the HV3-C - $1800 for a 2-channel unit
http://www.mil-media.com/hv-3c.html

I’d buy the HV-3C today BUT I wonder if I am going to need limiting, compression, and EQ.
I hear classical piano is supposed to be recorded unmolested and pure, but isn't some limiting smart for the peaks? and won't EQ help in a crummy room?
I suspect getting one unit with all of these features is better than paying for several units, patch cords, and duplicate power supplies.

I’m considering buying a pair of Millennia’s other units which include the HV-3C pre plus other features, I’ve only listed the features I care about . . .

TD-1 ($1500 for single channel)
http://www.mil-media.com/td-1.html
2 bands of EQ
Unfortunately I'd be paying for a bunch of features for electric guitar (yawn)

SST-1 ($2800 for a single channel)
http://www.mil-media.com/stt-1.html
Option to buy vacuum tubes to make a M-2B preamp
3 bands of EQ
Limiter/Compressor
VU meter
De-Esser

Is this one-box-does-all approach a good idea for my application?
Or are Millennia’s EQ/limiting/compressor circuits not as respected as their pres?
Are limiters/compressors/EQ really not that necessary for classical piano if levels are set carefully?
I could buy the $1800 pre and use the digital plug ins that came with protools.

I’m not a studio and prefer simplicity to infinite flexibility.
My priority is for the best sound quality I can afford.
Is this tube option of the STT-1 worth it?
How will a tube path change the sound of classical piano?

Is Millenia a slam dunk value for the price or is there something else that is a better value that is cheaper or not much more expensive?

Are the MBox converters that bad, or do converters not make THAT much difference in sound as good mic and pres?

IOW am I wasting my money with good mics and pres by using the cheap MBox converters?

If so is there an all-in-one unit that has converters too, and is it even possible to bypass the MBox converters? How would you get the signal into the computer?

[matyas]

First of all, try posting in the Remote forum. While you're not doing remote work, most classical recordists on this board post there.
Anyway, there are those that will disagree with me, but I've always found 414s to be pretty versatile mics. Many people like them on piano, me included. They'll also work nicely on your folky guitar-singer/songwriter stuff. I've used mine for both of those applications to decent effect.
I don't think you need to go all out for the Millennia. Lots of people around here like the DAV BG-1 preamp for classical and it's a lot cheaper. I have a Sytek mic amp which I like very much (and also gets a lot of love here and on other forums); I got it for $750 although it has 4 channels and you only need 2.
I also have an original MBox which I bought for location recording around the time it came out. The converters were a very substantial upgrade from the 16-bit DAT I had been using, but obviously they're not the greatest. I don't think they'll stop you from making a decent home recording, but if you had already budgeted $1800 for two channels of Millennia, you could always get a DAV for $750 (I think that's what they cost) and then get 2 channels of Mytek, Benchmark, or Apogee for $1000.

[PT6.7UZR]

Originally Posted by matyas

First of all, try posting in the Remote forum. While you're not doing remote work, most classical recordists on this board post there.

Thanks, but I thought this *was* the "remote" forum.

It is named, Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music & Location Recording

Where do I find the Remote Forum?
It is not on the list with the others, unless it goes by another name.

[Plush]

The d.a.v. Broadhurst Gardens No. 1 mic amp is perfect for your use.
You don't need eq or limiting for recording your German grand.

The tone quality is determined by your instrument playing in your room into your mics.

Start with your 414's in ORTF on a bar and don't go too close to your piano.

No need whatever to get more than the d.a.v. mic amp for a world class result.

"The d.a.v. electronics Broadhurst Gardens No. 1 mic amp is the best mic amp in the world." (sm)

[matyas]

Originally Posted by PT6.7UZR

Thanks, but I thought this *was* the "remote" forum.

It is named, Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music & Location Recording

Where do I find the Remote Forum?
It is not on the list with the others, unless it goes by another name.

Oops, I'm an idiot. Sorry....

[fifthcircle]

I'm with Plush on this one... I think with your mics and your instrument, DAV would be a great place to go.

I would differ on mic technique, though... Not a huge fan here of ORTF on piano. Rather, I like spaced omnis or spaced sub cardiods. Try placing the mics at about 2-3 feet wide, 5-8 feet out and about 7 feet high. Adjust as you hear it. Takes a bit of tweaking to get a good sound, but you have potential for a great piano sound this way.

--Ben

[PT6.7UZR]

Originally Posted by matyas

Oops, I'm an idiot. Sorry....

It's okay.

I made a mistake once. . . I thought I had made a mistake!

Hahahaha.

So the additional qualities that cause people to pay $1800 for the HV-3C will not be realized because of the rest of my gear?

[PT6.7UZR]

FWIW, here are the latest prices.

BG No 1 costs 830
BG No 1U costs 998
BG No 2 costs 1640
BG No 3 costs 2800
BG No 4 costs 2100
BG No 5 costs 2100
BG No 6 costs 860
BG No 8 costs 2340
BG No 9 costs 830

All prices in U.S dollars, prices include shipping, but not local
taxes [import duty 5% on over $700]

[Jim vanBergen]

You have excellent advice so far.

I have not used the DAV, but I know the HV-3 intimately. I would suggest this route over any "channel" that includes EQ & limiting. You need to record piano cleanly without peaks in ProTools, so a good, clean pre is what you want, be it HV-3 or DAV, you don't really want anything more than that, and you want to record your piano so that you never, EVER hit the red in ProTools.

[Recording David]

+3 on the DAV. It is a superb unit, and especially superb for the money. You wouldn't be disappointed with one.

[Omicron_9]

Greetings.

I do all acoustic and classical chamber recording, and the following is just the opinion and experiences of one person.....

I know I will possibly get flame-blasted for this, but I've had experience with both the DAV (BG-2) and Millennia (STT-1, HV-3b, 3c, 3d). For a year or so, I had both (BG-2 and HV-3d) simultaneously. The noise floor on the HV-3 is much lower than the DAV. I can still tell which tracks were recorded using the DAV, as I can hear the faint hiss in the background. I ended up selling the BG-2, even tho I liked what it did to the signal. I wouldn't describe it as transparent; however, I did like what it imparted to the signal very much. I would say it is clean; I'd hesitate to say it's transparent. It tended to add a slight richness, for lack of a better term. It pained me to sell it because of this; however, after several months of not using it due to the self-noise, it found another home. If you compare the actual EIN specs of both units, you'll see what I mean. I only compared the specs later, after I noticed the hiss, as I wondered if I had a defective BG-2, but sadly no. It wasn't outrageously bad, but it was noticeable and certainly moreso than the HV-3. In fact, it was noisier than the Sytek. The HV-3 gets branded as sterile and lifeless by some, but I would disagree. I also had a Sytek for two years as my main pre prior to the HV-3, and this is only the opinion of one person, but the HV-3 was exactly what I wanted to hear in a mic amp, which is nothing. No noise, no color; just the pure signal coming out of the mic. I am not implying it's the *only* mic amp which can achieve this, but it's the only one I've had that did. Maybe others will post and say that they didn't have the EIN issue I did, or they can't hear it, and that's fine; I'm only recounting what I heard on my units. I'm not saying ALL DAVs are noisy. Mine was, tho.

Comparisons from the manufacturer's website-published specs state the following for EIN figures:

Sytek: -134dBu (S.I.=50ohms) -129dBm(S.I.=150ohms)
HV-3D: -133 dB
DAV: -110 dB

I don't think there is a best mic pre or a best mic or a best anything. There is only what's best for you. And only you can make that determination. Sometimes it takes a while; sometimes it takes buying, trying, living with, and maybe selling pieces. It always requires much listening and trial and error and mic placement experimentation.

As for EQ... again, just my own rantings, but when doing classical type recording, I think of EQ as being accomplished vis a vis mic selection and placement.

I also have a pair of the new 414s; mine are the XL-II. I like them very much for instrument mic'ing. Best of luck in your exploration! Keep us posted on your findings.

Kind regards,
-0.9

[Plush]

Greetings,

I can tell you that none of our units ever had ANY noise and zero hiss. Even when I have 20 channels of DAV mic amps open into the console there is ZERO hiss or noise.

I agree with Omicron in his descriptions of the good things that the DAV does.

I'm afraid that I must ask that one look elsewhere to assign the cause of the hiss.

"HOuston, we have a problem. . . "

[Omicron_9]

Originally Posted by Plush

Greetings,

I can tell you that none of our units ever had ANY noise and zero hiss. Even when I have 20 channels of DAV mic amps open into the console there is ZERO hiss or noise.

I agree with Omicron in his descriptions of the good things that the DAV does.

I'm afraid that I must ask that one look elsewhere to assign the cause of the hiss.

"HOuston, we have a problem. . . "

Hmm...

Well.... this was using a matched 414 XL-II pair; one into the HV-3, one into the BG-2, matching levels, and switching ala A/B. Hiss... no hiss... hiss.. no hiss. This was borne out further on recorded tracks using various mics from Gefell, the 414 pair, TLM-103, etc. With self-noise specs of the mics themselves being like 7 dB (M930 and the new 414), I know exactly where the hiss was originating. A 20 dB difference in self-noise is not insignificant.

Plush, maybe you got the good ones!

Regards,
-0.9

[RobAnderson]

I can't speak for the DAV stuff, but I am a huge fan of the John Hardy M-2.

I don't think it has the noise spec's of the Sytek or Millennia, but it is one great sounding mic amp. I have the Millennia and Sytek as well - I love them both - and nothing beats the Millennia on Orchestral stuff, but the Hardy has got some real "guts" to it - which is what I like on piano especially.

Plus, with the Hardy you can buy two channels now and add more when you have more cash.

[Thom]

I will also put my vote in for the DAV. I have not had any troubles with hiss on my end either. I have used it with DPA 4006TL, Neuman KM84/KM184, AKG 414 mics. I have run them into a Sonic 302 and various HD recorders.

But, I do agree with everything positive Omicron said.

[ambo]

Apogee Duet. $500 2 nice quiet preamps with lots of gain and a very good ADC/DAC. Not sure if you could use it with protools though. It doesn't have digi in or out.

[hughesmr]

Another vote for the DAV BG1.

I got mine over the summer and was a *touch* dissapppointed at first (I was used to an ultra-clean Earthworks pre on most of my stuff). The DAV is very transparent but does have a touch of it's own character ... a smidge warmer than I was used to. Also it seems as though the amp is "ripening" the more I use it ... don't know if that's me or the amp settling in, but I'm not missing the EW at all these days. The DAV is a GREAT value and a great amp.