My 1st Decca Tree Recording

[studio1117]

Well here it is...my first time out with a Decca Tree..also my first time using 3 KM83's as well ( I didn't have the EQ Sphere's yet so they are truly omnidirectional at this point)
I recorded our local Symphony here in Salina. I must tell you that all of these people are volunteers (the conductor does get paid) they do about 5 large shows and many small shows a year. They usually sell out our 1300 seat venue. For a hick midwest town...we're kinda cool I think. Anyway..I have fun.

Well the recording itself...I was at the mercy of a group of dancers who performed with the symphony. As a result I had to put my Shure s15a stand on the floor and raise it up with the decca tree pretty much full height ( I left some poles only hald up for more support) the stage is about 4 ft up so I was only able to get about 4 ft above the conductors head. (about 9' off the stage)
During the first half of the concert the orchestra was back, during the 2nd half (when the choir came out) the symphony moved forward into a more traditional setup for the decca tree.
Anyway, here's a link to an MP3 (yuck) of the 1st song of the afternoon. I think you can still get an idea. I'd rather not embarass myself as to the mixer and recording device on the tracks. I was not able to use the DSD recorder at this show as I had hoped.
Link:
symphony
Please comment and give suggestions. (personally I think I needed more center channel)

[mikesilence]

I like it... maybe a bit more stereo spread would be nice. With to more microphones next to the outer mics of the decca tree. :-)

Greetz,

Mike

[studio1117]

Wow cool. I thought there was too much of a gap in the center. So that's interesting. I thought about the flank mics, but there really wasn't much room with all the dancers.
Would use cardioids in the flanking positions or omni's?
Thanks

[fifthcircle]

I would augment your tree with flanks and then bring the size of the tree in a bit smaller... Also, as you thought, the center is a bit low as there is a pretty sizable hole there.

I find that decca trees sound great, but they generally do not stand alone well in a mix. Rather, the tree as a part of a system in front of an orchestra works very well.

For this recording, raising the level of the center will get you a huge amount of help. If you don't have that ability (ie if it is mixed to stereo already), use of an eliptical image adjuster (ie Waves S1 or similar), can help you shrink the L-R image to firm things up a bit or M-S mastering can help fill in that center.

--Ben

[hughesmr]

You have my eternal respect for being brave enough to hoist a full-sized tree up one of those flimsy Shure stands!

[studio1117]

Yeah Ben. I agree it needs a bump in the middle. I could remix as I have that waves plug, but it was really just an exercise for me. I didn't charge or anything.
I normally record pop music and choirs, small acoustic combos. But I really love doing symphonies. I'd just never tried the tree & to be honest I was never aware of the need for the flank mics. I will add those next time. I found a great page on the decca setup http://www.sengpielaudio.com/DeccaTreeRecordingM50.pdf
I wish the darned orchestra played every week I'd really like to get this down and be better at it.
I really think the spheres would have helped a bit in that upper end localization.
I feel that the recording is a bit dark...not bad. But just a little (do any of you feel this way about it?) While I love the KM83's I wonder in the KM183's might be a bit "faster" They share an identical freq chart. But the transformer will effect the sound of course.
Thanks so far for the comments.

[studio1117]

Originally Posted by hughesmr

You have my eternal respect for being brave enough to hoist a full-sized tree up one of those flimsy Shure stands!

You are soooooo right. I'm looking for another as we speak/type. They are way flimsy. Maybe to put a VP88 15' in there they are fine. But not a decca tree.
It'll probably be put to work as the choir M/S stand.
Any suggestions of a good solid stand. I've located all the original sources of the AEA stands but I'd be happy to hear any more thoughts on that as well.

[hughesmr]

Originally Posted by studio1117

You are soooooo right. I'm looking for another as we speak/type. They are way flimsy. Maybe to put a VP88 15' in there they are fine. But not a decca tree.
It'll probably be put to work as the choir M/S stand.
Any suggestions of a good solid stand. I've located all the original sources of the AEA stands but I'd be happy to hear any more thoughts on that as well.

Try this puppy:

Amazon.com: JTL Black Tower 19.5' Lightstand, 8 Section, Detachable 5/8" Top Mounting Stud with 1/4" x 20 Thread, Supports 25 Lbs., Black Anodized.: Camera & Photo

Heavy as hell, but works great. And the price is right.

[simonv]

On the album Im mixing right now, there were 3 overheads in this positionning..
How do you mix it exactly? 100% Left, 100% Right and Center?
I personnally don't see any benefits and I usually end up muting one of them.

[studio1117]

Originally Posted by hughesmr

Try this puppy:

Amazon.com: JTL Black Tower 19.5' Lightstand, 8 Section, Detachable 5/8" Top Mounting Stud with 1/4" x 20 Thread, Supports 25 Lbs., Black Anodized.: Camera & Photo

Heavy as hell, but works great. And the price is right.

Thanks for the heads up. I'd seen a few JTL stands but I don't think this one. I like the fact that it looks like from the description it can carry some weight up there.

[fifthcircle]

Be aware if and when you put balls on the omnis, the localization of your top end will get better. BUT, that also means that you are going to be that much more careful with the spacing of your tree. Your holes will get larger and you'll end up with 3 "halos" of sound. Basically, 3 different images. The only way you'll be able to fix that is by bringing in your spacing (perhaps a meter or meter and a half per leg- listen and decide).

The tree that I use for orchestral work is relatively small- about a meter per side (42" wide by 38" inches out on the "T"). I use 4006's with the 50mm spheres and it works quite well. For some chamber orchestras, I'll even bring the tree spacing in by 6." To regain some of the width while maintaining the image/focus, I'll use omni outriggers.

--Ben

[studio1117]

Yeah, I used the AEA 2meter x 1meter and aimed the mics towards the edges of the orchestra...and then back in a bit. Center mic was pointed down towards the first 1-3 rows.
I'm going to use 40mm balls on mine. I've built some up and want to try them. I need to find something to make the surface a bit harder. (I'm using pretty hard painted wood for now)
I think this is going to take some practice. As I said..I wish they played weekly.

[studio1117]

Hey if you all go to my website and look at my equipment page. Which mics would you suggest I use as the outriggers? I was thinking of the 4050's in Cardiod..but what about omnis as well?
Thanks

[Thom]

Originally Posted by studio1117

Hey if you all go to my website and look at my equipment page. Which mics would you suggest I use as the outriggers? I was thinking of the 4050's in Cardiod..but what about omnis as well?
Thanks

I used my KM84s as outriggers in the past and loved the sound. As for omnis, I can't say.

As an alternative, I know some guys who have used the Coles 4038, but I do not have not and cannot confirm the sound. I have used them as a main pair and actually loved the sound. They are on short list of purchases in the new year.

[studio1117]

I did a "Sinatra type" session with coles 4038's on the orchestra...and it was killer. Not by my hand..by the hand of the mic designers. I'll look around for the recording to post on that. I love those mics but I way under utilize them
I'll give both a shot.
I'm wanting to add another 4050 and try the decca tree with those. I love AT mics they are great at any price. 4050, 4060, 4047, 4033 (don't really like the 4040 though..and no..it's not a 4050 in Cardioid only)
Any thoughts on those 4050's in Decca..anyone.

[fifthcircle]

Outriggers should be either omni or subcardiod (regardless of your center pair). Otherwise, there is too much localization of sound and you get either a big hole in your image or parts of the ensemble brought out that will harm your ensemble sound...

--Ben

[studio1117]

Yeah, that makes sense. BTW I like the way you have your site/pricing setup.

[studio1117]

OK, here's a link to a track I did with the same unpaid symphony with a local guy who plays Sinatra in the Vegas "Rat Pack" production. They only had 1 practice together and it's live so try to focus less on the actual playing and more on the sound of the 4038's
The main 2 mics are the 4038's aimed at the orchestra in kind of a spaced pair. there are a couple of u-87's in cardiod filling in. The piano has some KM84's on it (a steinway) there are like 3 mics on the drums (k,s,ovr) and a direct bass line.
The vocals are the house mic so that's why the lead vocals don't sound so hot ($3-400 wireless..ick!!)
But anyway the overall sound is from the 4038's, you can really hear them on the string parts.
Forgive the intro. I don't have editing software on this computer so I couldn't clip it off.
It's the link on the upper left half.
symphony

[David.H]

Hi, Aaron
Well O.K there might be some faults, but hey what a band. I'd like them here any time you like. I liked the Les Lanhorst's item a lot. It was very enjoyable, a real pleasure. In that recording situation not a bad job at all.

[studio1117]

Thanks. I mainly posted that for the guy who wanted to hear what 4038's sound like. I really find myself using more ribbons lately.I just did a session with a great engineer named Mike Ross and he brought some Royer 121's for guitar amps. Wow!!! I got get 1 of those.

[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by studio1117

BTW I like the way you have your site/pricing setup.

Thanks... It is in major need of an update- My business has changed a lot since I put that site up. Both in terms of my rates as well as the services I can provide.

Just need time, though, to change it up.

--Ben

[studio1117]

Hey add a gearlist for us "slutz" too

[fifthcircle]

We're getting off topic here, but in my experiences, gear lists are pointless for everybody except the competition. All my clients know and care is that I use great quality gear and they get a great quality recording.

I had a gear list online once and over several years I never once had a potential client ask me about it. On the other had, I had a number of engineers call me to ask how I could justify working with the stuff I had...

--Ben

[studio1117]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

We're getting off topic here, but in my experiences, gear lists are pointless for everybody except the competition. All my clients know and care is that I use great quality gear and they get a great quality recording.

I had a gear list online once and over several years I never once had a potential client ask me about it. On the other had, I had a number of engineers call me to ask how I could justify working with the stuff I had...

--Ben

I hear ya. I've never had a school, choir, symphony etc ask 1 thing about the gear, how much it costs etc. and they pay their bills. OTOH just about every band I record asks about gear and I never have exactly what they want (look at my studios gear list and where I'm at and tell me I don't have enough for these bands) and they never have a budget and take months to pay. I think I've found the forum for me and I think I shall soon be selling my console tape machine and most of my outboard.