Normalising classical music

[freestyle tromb]

Hey kids,
I'm editing some classical music that I recorded recently (a violin recital and a solo piano recital). I got decent levels, but obviously I'd like for the performers to be able to listen to these and not have to crank up whatever sound system they might happen to have.

I've heard some people talk about not sending off mixes to be mastered peaking at 0 dB FS, due both to distortion and giving the mastering guy flexibility. This stuff isn't going to be mastered; it's just for the performers to have. Think I'm safe, sonically speaking, if I normalize these recordings before editing them?

Also, how would you treat different pieces of different dynamic levels? I think I'm going to normalize each piece (not each movement- duh), so that the quiet ones are still audible without having to change the volume of the playback system. I guess I'm just curious if there's any kind of concensus on this. (I guess I also don't listen to classical recordings very often, lately!)

Thanks, guys.
Eric

[Mr. Liszt]

Hey,

I am curious about the same thing so I'll be waiting to see what people think.

But I must say that I have performed piano solos many times and I have have had many compositions performed and each time whatever studio the university sent the recordings to screwed them. I don't know if I am jsut too picky or what. I could always notice the recordings being affected by the editing that was done. The one project that I was able to attend the editing of I begged the engineer not do to do anything to the recording at all. They thought it was wierd that I showed up just to tell them to do nothing, lol. With calssical pieces I just want an exact representation of what was performed nothing more, nothing less - save for silence between movement edits etc.

Normalization I can understand though espesially if a piece is going on a compilation or what have you. If I could I would skip even that though.

[aussie_techie]

dont normalise use a limiter, that way you can take off any real peaks and make of the most of your final medium, not to limit much at all just a couple of db during the biggest peak recorded. make sure you use a clean limiter, dont use waves. oh and dont leave the limiter output at 0db, set it to about -0.1db or whatever works for your limiter.

you may well have to bring up the quieter pieces a little but dont do it to much or they will be overly loud compared to other pieces. Less is more.

[freestyle tromb]

I'm not even editing the silence between movements on this- for most of them, she doesn't take a very long break. 6 different pieces, all memorized! Oh, the other thing was that about half the pieces were only one movement, or she only performed one movement of. (A string quartet I recorded recently I definitely cut down the between-movement space- long breaks, and pages shuffling around.)

aussie techie, thanks for the advice- do you really think a limiter is a good idea? I decided, actually, to normalize up to -0.1 dB; but limiting is something I think of as a "no-no" in classical recording. Maybe very slight... hah, especially in the pieces where the audience applause is really the loudest thing. (Happens quite often in chamber music and recitals!)

[freestyle tromb]

Oh! One more thing I thought of. I recorded at 24 bit. But I'm not bouncing down in ProTools- I'm simply doing the "export region as file" command. I don't think I can just change the bitrate to 16 during that process without truncation, correct? (There's no dither option in the dialogue box, though there is a bitrate option.) What about when I burn a CD in iTunes? iTunes will play 24-bit files; when I burn a CD is it cool to just leave them 24 bit? Or do I really have to perform a bounce with dither?

[aussie_techie]

absolutely i would always use a limiter, it should not be working very often, only on a few peaks and then only a few db, absolutely no more. you will get much more out of it then normalising. its fine if the audience is the loudest thing in the recording but you have to be careful they are not to loud for someone who has turned up their listening system to listen to the music, you dont want them to suddenly get blown way by something that has come as part of the recoding process rather than the music they are listening to.

in general normalising is a no no, if you want to read some of the hatred about normalising then read this thread
when does one need to use normalization???? please help a noob :P

also if you will need to dither the recordings before exporting 16bit files. it should always be the last stage in any processing before going to a CD

[andygomez]

I have never put any kind of compression on classical music. its supposed to be very dynamic why ruin that?...
record it well and leave it alone thats how ive always done it.

[aussie_techie]

i wouldn't compress classical music either but a compressor and a limiter are to different processes. as i said only every limiting a couple of db in the peaks which can often be the audience anyway, i would never want it to be acting often and with a clean limiter you wont hear it working.
it is having such huge dynamic range in the first place you need to get as much out of a medium with limited dynamic range as you can and some very slight limiting lets you do that.

[radiated]

When I do archival recordings, I never add effects if the room is good. I have added some reverb once or twice, but that was in particulary crappy sounding rooms. Normally I just go round in Wavelab with SRC, normalize and dither, and then burn to CD. I have never found it necessary to add compression or limmiting. The very best classical recordings im my CD collection did not go through any editing at all. I own many non-classical records that is compressed and still good, but never on classical.

I'm not at all an recording professional, but I know what sounds good to me and not.

[xxm]

hi!
You can push everything a little if it is really too quiet but please not to up 0bdfs. Just pick up a similar CD and look how loud it goes, it could be helpful.

I would just tell your customers to NOT listen your cd for the first time in a car or in a bad environment. If I buy a great wine bottle I don't open it on the way back home. I solved many similar problems just by telling this to my customers! Many think that the best sound they can get in their car.

You shouldn't leave itunes alone work for you. Apply some dither and compare the result before you burn a CD.

Cheers, Vincent

[Matti]

Remember you´ll have to ride gain for broadcast - compression?

Matti

[Plush]

My advice to you would be to keep all the pieces in perspective. You can turn up or down to match what the listener in a concert would hear. Loud piano is louder than solo violin.

Don't use a heavy limiter because it is unnecessary. A light dusting of a 1.5 to 1.8 ratio with a gain makeup of 3 dB might help, however.

Don't normalize as it's a non authorized practice for classical program material.

Peak your individual LOUDEST pieces at -4 to -3 and adjust the violin pieces to be much less. That is the way they would sound in real life.

Tell your client to not be lazy and to stand by to adjust the volume control. With remote controls of stereos now this is done from the couch.

[Just Dan]

I wouldn't normalize each piece. Otherwise a piece with an overall quiet mood would be the same volume as a piece that might be more aggressive.

What I do is record at 24-bit to give me plenty of room to work with. If possible, I ask for a few loud points in the program to I can set levels. When I do that I back off even a little bit more since, in performance, they'll probably give a bit more.

Afterwards I compare the max peak in each piece, say 4 pieces, and the peaks are -6.42, -4.78, .2.25 and -3.35. I take the highest peak and round down, so I change the gain +2 on all the tracks. There's probably an easier way to do the same thing, but it doesn't take long so I just do it that way.

Classical music programs are often selected with the overall dynamics of the pieces in mind and if you normalize each piece, that gets thrown out the window.

Dan

[freestyle tromb]

thank you guys, this is all great stuff to think about.

[bove]

If you feel that you left a lot of headroom, sure, raise the level your recording, but boost all the tracks the same amount. Softer pieces should be softer than the loud ones, so leave them that way.

Also, for a recording of violin or piano, you don't want your peaks at 0db anyways, so I wouldn't normalize. Save your 0db peaks for symphony orchestras going crazy. That way your recordings sound real, relative to other classical recordings.

[sonare]

Originally Posted by MATTI

Remember you´ll have to ride gain for broadcast - compression?

Matti

There isn't a radio station on earth that isn't using an Orban (or something similar) at the transmitter, so don't do anything to it or you could double-compress.

Even classical stations use some gain modification-- the better ones do it in such a way that you don't notice it.

Again-- do NOT ride gain, unless it is on a wild soprano! Right, Plush?

Rich

[Matti]

OK!

Matti