Coming Up - and I Need Advice!

[mrsteaks]

Hey, all - next month I will be recording a world class tenor as he performs not classical but folk music (!). The location will be in a small venue with the acoustics of a living room - seriously. To dampen the already dead space will be probably 150 people. He will be singing and playing an acoustic guitar, which will also feed a Behringer guitar amp via pickup. The amp does have a D/I out. NO sound reinforcement!

I have available to me Schoeps MK2S (2), Shure KSM 137 (3), KSM 144 (1), Audix SCX-25 (2), Royer SF-12 (1), Sony C-48 (2), AKG C-451 (2). In addition, my pres are an EW Lab 102, ADL 600, TRP, Onyx 800R, Grace 101 (pair).

I'm thinking an A B pair out in the room (card or omni, the sound check will tell), maybe the KSM44 or an SCX25 for the voice, and the Royer on the guitar body with a KSM137 near the neck. Another possibility is the Schoeps in an 18 inch A B placed three feet or so from the guitar.

How would you folks mic this event?

[Roland]

My best advice would be to treat this like an acoustic rock session, i.e. close miked vocal, use a DI box from his guitar, not the amp DI, put up a pair or two of room mics and multitrack for later mixing. Just because he is a classical tenor doesn't mean you should be overly respectful and refuse to use a vocal mic. SM87, Sennheiser 865, Neumann 105, etc. The only other way to go would be something like a binnaural head which may or may not work, I would still have the close set-up for back-up, small rooms can be unforseeably problematic.

Regards


Roland

[Plush]

To avoid the "small room sound" don't mic the room. Use everything close in. No omni mics anywhere, no room mics (kiss of death) no nothin'. Singer can be captured as he sounds in THAT room. Later, one can do a post mortem and attempt to improve the sound.

Mic it like a Jose Feliciano date.

[mrsteaks]

Plush - treat it like like a studio session, in other words. I see your thinking on the room mics - there is no acoustic to mic, so don't. Me thinks there will be much to do in post!

Roland - I was going to run a DI, but from the amp. You think a DI split from the guitar would be better? BTW, I talked him out of the Behringer (for all the Behringer reasons) and he's going to use a Marshall AS50D.

I'll have to borrow an SM57 - no, I don't own one, believe it or not!

Thanks for the advice, folks.

[Roland]

Yes, DI directly off the guitar, with acoustic guitars the cleanest signal is likely to be the best bet. For a vocal mic I woulld try and get something better than a 57, likely too be too "edgey". I think what Plush is saying about the acoustic mics is pretty much the same as I am, I would however set up at least a pair and track them. If you don't use them fine, but they will capture your audience reaction and used carefully might add a little something too the final mix, without your mix may be a little "vanilla".

Regards


Roland

[locosoundman]

I imagine you are multi-tracking this date? If so I would set something up in the room anyway to capture the applause at the end of each number. You can always not use it.

If you could get your hands on a super cardioid for the voice like a KMS105 or an M88, it might be a good idea. Otherwise you can try your Royer or something in figure-8 to keep as much Gtr as possible out of the vox mic (although you did say he was an opera singer...). Heck, if you're multi-tracking, mic the amp, take the DI, throw a mic on the acoustic...

My gut instinct? KISS - Put up an MS pair right in front of him, a spot mic on the amp, and mix it live.

[mrsteaks]

Originally Posted by locosoundman

I imagine you are multi-tracking this date? If so I would set something up in the room anyway to capture the applause at the end of each number. You can always not use it.

If you could get your hands on a super cardioid for the voice like a KMS105 or an M88, it might be a good idea. Otherwise you can try your Royer or something in figure-8 to keep as much Gtr as possible out of the vox mic (although you did say he was an opera singer...).

My gut instinct? KISS - Put up an MS pair right in front of him, a spot mic on the amp, and mix it live.

I'm going to see if I can get a KMS105. Yes, I will be tracking - an HD24XR. I will likely put up a pair of room mics, and just in case they DO work, I can keep them. I also considered the Royer (half of it, anyway) as a vocal mic. I've done that before, and liked the results. Maybe an A B pair or M/S in front of him for the guitar. Definitely DI from the guitar. Definitely KISS!

I have a sound check scheduled for the 21st of January. I'll let you all know what I discovered (resurrect this thread). In the mean time - many choral dates (with piano and harp) to do between now and then. 'Tis the season!

[LX3]

If he's sitting down to play, I would definitely mic the guitar as well as recording the DI direct from the pickup.

I realise they're a necessary evil live, but I hate the sound of DI'd acoustic guitar, especially "exposed" i.e. not buried somewhere in a mix of a whole band. You work and work and work on it, (compression, eq, ambience, etc) and it still never sounds like an acoustic guitar.

You're multitracking, so there's nothing to lose.

If he's standing up, it's more difficult. But not impossible.

[locosoundman]

Actually, I was thinking forget the close mic's and go MS for the whole thing (with the mid mic biased towards the singer - I would probably have the array relatively close) - just spot mic the amp for some presence if it needs it, since it would be in the array anyway, but probably a bit on the roomy side. Or move the array (or the amp) around till you find the balance and tone you want.

After all, it's folk music - a natural presentation would be my first inclination. All this close mic'ing stuff might just get in his way. If he's a classical singer, he can probably project well enough to balance himself nicely with the guitar. If it's done right, the single stereo array might sound better than 18 spot mic's all over...

On the other hand, it would take some guts to commit to a single pickup like that, and I can't make that sort of call without hearing what it sounds like in the room first.

It's just another way of approaching it. If you're not overly concerned about visual aesthetics, do both and compare later.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by locosoundman

Actually, I was thinking forget the close mic's and go MS for the whole thing (with the mid mic biased towards the singer - I would probably have the array relatively close) - just spot mic the amp for some presence if it needs it, since it would be in the array anyway, but probably a bit on the roomy side. Or move the array (or the amp) around till you find the balance and tone you want.

After all, it's folk music - a natural presentation would be my first inclination. All this close mic'ing stuff might just get in his way. If he's a classical singer, he can probably project well enough to balance himself nicely with the guitar. If it's done right, the single stereo array might sound better than 18 spot mic's all over...

On the other hand, it would take some guts to commit to a single pickup like that, and I can't make that sort of call without hearing what it sounds like in the room first.

It's just another way of approaching it. If you're not overly concerned about visual aesthetics, do both and compare later.

This is exactly the trap I was talking about earlier not to fall into. Just because he is a talented tenor being overly respectful of that talent will likely lead to not getting what is required. MS techniques can be great, but they are also notorious for "capturing" the room sound, and if that's not just right it will spoil the job. Guitar pick-ups are not perfect, but these days they are a lot better than say 15-20 years ago, with a little bit of bleed into the vocal mic and possibly a little of the room sound it will humanize a bit, miking acoustics live is rare these days as it can create as many problems as it solves. Icertainly wouldn't be happy if I didn't have the DI as well.

Regards to all


Roland

[LX3]

Originally Posted by Roland

Guitar pick-ups are not perfect, but these days they are a lot better than say 15-20 years ago, with a little bit of bleed into the vocal mic and possibly a little of the room sound it will humanize a bit

Yes definitely, I should have said that on occasion, pickups turn out good.

Especially for some reason on Taylors. I recorded a really expensive Taylor the other week live, both mic'd and DI, and the pickup sound was great.

The mic still sounded much more real, but we had no time at all to set the mic in the position we'd have liked, and the player tended to forget there was a mic there and swung around a lot, so we had to go with the DI for the recording.

But I would still do BOTH if practical. Keep your options open. This sounds to me like a perfect situation in which to mic an acoustic... no drums or deafening monitoring to spill into it, dead room so no weird reflections, and I would assume the player won't be jumping around the stage! If you can't mic an acoustic on this one, I don't know what kind of gig you'd do it on.

[LX3]

Just realised you said that there's no sound reinforcement. That'll teach me to read these things more carefully...

It would be weird to ask him to sing directly into a vocal mic if the audience aren't hearing it, and it will put him out of his comfort zone if he's not used to performing that way. So I'd have thought you'll have to mic him from a little distance.

Suddenly, reasonably close M/S picking up voice and guitar (say 2-3ft, and half-way between head and guitar height?), plus the acoustic DI, plus room mics (probably rear-facing to pick up the crowd and less direct) sounds like quite a good way to go. To me anyhow.

It's tough predicting the best approach until you've seen the setup. Here's to your "sound check" on the 21st.

Paul

[mrsteaks]

Roland and Paul, I do thank you!

The performer is David Gordon, well known in classical circles, and very respected as a voice teacher as well. Oh - and he plays the banjo, too (but not during the up coming performance)! He wants to approach the gig as a recording session, and as such, the audience will be aware of (and part of) the performance.

I will certainly try all of the suggestions on the 21st. They're all solid, no doubt! David has no issue singing into a "vocal mic", and he will be seated. He might move around a bit (he plans to tell a few stories), and a hand held mic might be necessary. I'll know more in a few days, and I'll be delighted to share.

Thanks again, folks - oh, and Happy Holidays!

[LX3]

Aha, gotcha Mark. Time to find that 105 after all :-)

My concern would be, if there's no SR, performers tend not to use handheld mics properly. There's no incentive, it doesn't sound any different to them whether they're an inch away or a foot away. They feel stupid singing/speaking into a mic that "isn't on."

However, with a mic on a stand, especially if it's out of eye-line, they can get on singing "acoustically", and it just picks up what they're doing. (Hang a condenser upside down above their head, a foot out, for vocal.)

But obviously, they mustn't move.

(I did a jazz gig recently where we kept monitors and FOH so low the band were basically playing acoustic... which is great for the recording, and was what they wanted... but then the horn players started ignoring the mics and wandering around the stage playing their solos. I had pointed out this danger, clearly the message didn't register with them.)

I'm sure you realise all this...

[mrsteaks]

Time to find a 105, 104 or Shure KSM9. I need to do a comparison.

Yes, agreed on the danger of "moving around". David is very seasoned, I think he'll be fine. As you suggest, hanging an LDC above his head is another option....

All good points!

[mrsteaks]

First, I want to thank everyone who contributed to this thread - you contributed to the recording, which was a success.

I did a run through last Monday, which was a wonderful opportunity to put different mics and techniques to test. The octagonal shaped room was livelier than I remembered, but I was aware that it would dampen consdierably with a crowd in it. I ended up using a Shure KSM9 on vocal spot, a Royer SF12 for the overhead (7 feet in front of the perfomer and seven feet high), and an A/B pair of Audix SCX25 (at 21 inches) three feet in front of the performer and level with the guitar. In the mixdown of the runthrough, the KSM9 was way down in the mix, there more to localize the vocal than anything. The Royer was the bulk of the mix, with the Audix pair adding bloom to the guitar. I decided on using my EW Lab 102 for the KSM9, my ADL 600 for the Audix, and my AEA TRP for the Royer. All were tracked to my HD24XR at 88.2 kHz.

Yesterday was the performance. I added a pair of Avenson STO-2 married to my Onyx 800R for room mics - they were on opposite walls way back in the room, and were tracked. There were 140 people in attendance, plus it was raining, but the "weather noise" was not an issue. I did a mix on the fly for a safety copy to my MLink and HHB630, and was pleased with the rough. In the next week or two, I'll be sitting down with the artist (David Gordon) and we'll start work on the recording.

There are a couple of pix here: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/remot...equipment.html

Man, that was fun! There was a lot of planning, worry, and work that went into it, but it turned out well. And, as I said, a lot of the credit I owe to you guys!

Thanks!

[mrsteaks]

The final is still a work in progress, but my client (David Gordon) was good enough to post three pieces from this (his) gig on my website. He and I are quite pleased with the results so far. I have never been in a position to have the kind of control over the quality of the recording as I did with one, as I mostly do jobs for amatuer ensembles in live situations. That means short setup times, compromised mic placements (and choices), and sometimes less than stellar performances. This one was anything but! It stretched my (meager) abilities, and it was satisfying doing it! I thought I'd share them with you folks.

http://www.prettygoodrecordings.com/...on/lauzeta.mp3
http://www.prettygoodrecordings.com/...n/inmylife.mp3
http://www.prettygoodrecordings.com/...on/georgia.mp3