Advice on Jazz Trio recording

[a nonnie mouse]

Hi All,

Wanted to mobilize the brainpower and experience here to help me put together a gameplan for recording an avant-garde jazz trio -- baby grand piano, drum set and soprano saxophone doubling on clarinet.

I'm doing two sessions with this group, one a live recording in a pretty decent sounding smallish (22' x 16' stage) venue, the other in a glorified living room, fully carpeted (roughly 15' x 20').

I plan on posting samples of the sessions once done (late Dec.) so we can hear the results of your help, and critique/discuss them.

I have my idea of how to approach this, but don't want to skew the results here in any one direction.

Here are the mics available for the gig:

2 x Earthworks QTC1 omnidirectional matched pair
4 x AT4051a SDC cardioid
2 x AT4049a SDC omni capsules
1 x Rode K2 LDC multi-pattern tube w/ NOS Telefunken tube
1 x AT4050 LDC multi-pattern
1 x Beyerdynamic M160 hypercardioid ribbon
1 x Beyerdynamic M130 figure-8 ribbon
1 x Beyerdynamic M500n(c) hypercardioid ribbon
1 x Rode NT4 X/Y cardioid SDC stereo mic

All the mics will be running into a Metric Halo ULN2 and a Metric Halo 2882.

What would you do? Thanks in advance for your help!

[a nonnie mouse]

I've attached an mp3 sample (@320kbps) of the group from an earlier session, recorded in the living room described above with two Earthworks QTC1>Metric Halo ULN2 to give you some context.

Obviously this is not a good recording (it was a demo), which is why I've decided to go multi-track and isolate the room (and drums) as much as possible, and to bring up the presence of the horn and piano.

[Jungle Jazz]

Here's what I would try first:

AT4051 pair in ORTF on piano
M160 on sax/clarinet
drums: AT4051 pair as overheads and 4050 in front of the kit

[a nonnie mouse]

Originally Posted by Jungle Jazz

Here's what I would try first:
AT4051 pair in ORTF on piano
M160 on sax/clarinet
drums: AT4051 pair as overheads and 4050 in front of the kit

Thanks Jungle --

That's almost exactly what I had in mind (AT4051 pair on piano, M160 on horns), though I was thinking of the Earthworks for the drum overheads.

Good idea with the 4050 in front of the kit -- didn't think of that. You'd put the 4050 in cardioid for that I'm guessing?

One question I have been pondering is if both the drums and piano are miked in stereo, will it weaken the presence of the horn to have that in mono?

Of course, the problem is that if I use something more than the M160 in the living room session I'll probably get too much bleed from the drums, but maybe for the live session I could use two mics on the horns?

It's kind of fun to work in ugly rooms with limited resources, really makes you think!

[smarsland]

I hope the music gets better.

[a nonnie mouse]

Originally Posted by smarsland

I hope the music gets better.

No offense, but this thread is not to question the quality or validity of the music (I'll admit it's not for everyone!), but to figure out how to capture it as well as possible given the available materials.

[Jungle Jazz]

>Good idea with the 4050 in front of the kit -- didn't think of that. You'd put the 4050 in cardioid for that I'm guessing?

Yes, in cardioid. I'd start with it maybe a foot or so in front of the kit, placed towards the top of the kick. I'd use this mostly to augment drum sounds--kick, rack, and floor tom--but I'd try to keep cymbals out of it as much as possible. I usually use a darker mic in this position, like an AT4047 or even CAD M179, but I didn't see anything like that on your list. You might try the K2 there, but I usually try to avoid using tube mics in live settings.

>One question I have been pondering is if both the drums and piano are miked in stereo, will it weaken the presence of the horn to have that in mono?

This depends on your panning. If, for example, you place the piano on the right side, the drums on the left, you could put the horn right up the middle. This is likely how they would set up in a live context anyway, so it shouldn't sound unfamiliar in the mix.

>Of course, the problem is that if I use something more than the M160 in the living room session I'll probably get too much bleed from the drums, but maybe for the live session I could use two mics on the horns?

To keep it simple, I'd try one mic and see how it sounds. If it seems thin or lacking, you could then try a second mic, but I'd try to use one mic and experiment with placement first.

[to-pse]

Originally Posted by smarsland

I hope the music gets better.

Yep - the stuff that goes into the signal-chain is definately
more important than the chain itself or its room-position...

But - everyone to his taste ;-)

Tobias

[a nonnie mouse]

Originally Posted by to-pse

Yep - the stuff that goes into the signal-chain is definately
more important than the chain itself or its room-position...

But - everyone to his taste ;-)

Tobias

Thanks for your help in this thread on recording techniques for piano/horn/drums trio.

Yeah, it's too bad they don't play that universally beautiful music that uses heptatonic scales, 400 year old functional harmony and four beat rhythmic cycles with accents on the 2 and 4.

Then I might actually get some useful opinions here (Mr. Jungle's help notwithstanding).

Gee, I almost sound disappointed.

[videoteque]

It's funny how in internet you find so many retro-thinking people!!!

The music is not your cup of tea, great, who cares??

Keep the music coming!!!

[resound]

The clip is fine. I don't expect that this illustrates the group's full range, but even if it does, who cares? It takes all types to make a world and if the artists are happy with their performance and they have a happy audience, more power to them.

FWIW, my view is that of someone who has a Ph.D. in the original poster's "universally beautiful music that uses heptatonic scales, 400 year old functional harmony and four beat rhythmic cycles with accents on the 2 and 4." Give me Tim Berne, Mat Maneri, Matthew Shipp, etc. over Wynton and his crowd any day. That's not to put down mainstream jazz as much as it is to just further articulate that different people find different value in different music.

Most of us would be much better served to listen with more open ears and less open mouths; we might even learn something from music we don't like.

[a nonnie mouse]

Thank you videoteque and vukoncrack for your well executed counterpoint. (ah, but what species was it?)
: )

Now, can we get back to the matter at hand? I'm not trying to stir up an aesthetic rebellion here, just looking for some good old fashioned advice related to recording a trio of woodwinds/piano/drums.

Might I get more suggestions/advice/help if we broaden the palette to include equipment not on the above list, but that is in that same ~$1000 or less per mic price range? Let's try it....

Thanks.

Originally Posted by Jungle Jazz

Here's what I would try first:

AT4051 pair in ORTF on piano
M160 on sax/clarinet
drums: AT4051 pair as overheads and 4050 in front of the kit

Agree with Jungle Jazz's input with single mic pair on piano, 3 mics OH pair + BD front and single mic on Sax/clarinet ... as well as selection of very neutral sounding AT 40XX range and M130/160 ribbon on horns. 6 microphones is already a lot for a jazz trio.

ORTF pair on piano 7 ft high 7 ft away 45° from board center with 45° open piano lid is one possibility. Classic sounding piano. Acoustic diffusers or damping under piano can improve piano sound from such setup.

Large diaphragm but also small diaphragm (such as omni AT 4049) could be placed in AB pair at 1/4 and 3/4 inside piano width, 12" from hammer mechanics 30° down, clamped with suspension on piano frame. Piano lid could be totally removed (open soundboard) ... the piano sound will tell you.

Putting some time delay (6 to 8 ft) on BD front mic to realign in time with OH mic pair makes a big difference on drum set cleaner transients (merge 3 mics together) ... turning the fine delay knob to sweet time spot.

Horns: never the mic inside the horn ... most unrealistic & agressive sound.

Instead, at sax player's neck level, 3ft away or more, M130 or AT 4050 or K2 aiming at highest keyhole of the sax or 45° down (bright or warm sound).

Clarinet need the floor reflections to get bass, again at player's neck level, 3ft away or more, straight or 45° down (bright or warm sound).

Last: setting the band in a triangle facing each other in the room will put them in time. M130 or AT 4050 or K2 in figure 8 could be shared as focal point for trio and lead mic for horns.

Omnis or wide cardioids can sound often better than cardioids, especially in close miking...

Less microphones well matched to each other (on-axis and especially off-axis sound) ... is best for acoustic jazz recording.

Before tracking, perform quick mix with high-end headphones only with faders and pan ... at some point the 6 mics in good positions 'gell together' (do not sound like 6 mics any more) and depict the trio in stereo space like you are in the room ... press REC!

[a nonnie mouse]

Originally Posted by High Fidelity

setting the band in a triangle facing each other in the room will put them in time. M130 or AT 4050 or K2 in figure 8 could be shared as focal point for trio and lead mic for horns.

Thanks for your input HiFi -- I'm wondering if you could expand upon the above? Do you mean putting a figure 8 in the middle of the trio "triangle" and having that double as the horn mic and a room mic? or did I misunderstand?

No one so far has suggested a semi-distant AB pair -- the fact that one of the sessions will be in a glorified living room is probably one big reason, I assume, but for the concert session (which will be in a decent sounding room) is there a reason why folks haven't suggested an AB omni pair 10 feet in front of the stage to capture overall ambience?

Thanks.

Just one ribbon figure 8 close to middle of triangle but horn player being close (to very close for solo part) as it is the weakest acoustic instrument.

If the living room is pretty live, it would make sense to bring acoustic damping to get it more dry. Moving in couche(s), carpet or tapistry hang vertical with clearance from the wall, trying to damp drum set first. Ideally acoustic gobos for sides and even suspendended blanket to damp cymbals.

Move piano and drum until it really suit the room best with defined lows without excessive room resonances and already good acoustic balance ... both will have to play ligth to fit the horn sections and piece arrangement.

Using the right combination of room single mic or mic pair (ORTF or AB) with spot microphones (BD + OH), mic pair on piano and horn solo ... with right time re-alignment i.e. very small delay can provide both merged acoustic sound (being there) and intimacy/definition.

EQ balance will be critical in between room mics (ORTF or AB, reduce excessive low and low mid and bring air) and spot mics (reduce excessive high in 1-6kHz band) probably mixed -10 to -6dB on top of main room mike.

K2 can be nice with continuously variable pattern to identify which pattern fits best at given distance.

[deve]

Originally Posted by smarsland

I hope the music gets better.

that's totally uncalled for. Please don't discourage people from asking help.

[smarsland]

My apologies. I shouldn't have brought bias to the equation. I think I lost my head.

-s

[layez]

this free jazz trio is pretty good. i would have a blast recording this!

[BenJah]

that music was neither country , or western.. what were you thinking??

[a nonnie mouse]

For future readers, here is another useful GS thread for the same instrumentation:

micing drums and piano for jazz trio? - Gearslutz.com