long microphone bar available

[soundworx]

Hi!

I really don't know what Swiss Post is doing with the ordered bars! I shipped them all together on the 6th of December. According to information of Swiss Post shipping to the U.S. takes between 11 and 15 workdays. During christmas-time this could be exceeded.

I'm really sorry for that, but I can't change anything now.

Have a good time and a happy new year!

best regards

Ueli

[Melodioso]

That's a great product! And made in my country... for once! Just ordered one. I was using a sabrasom till now, which is kind of cheaply made. This one looks very pro and sturdy.

Btw, I'm sure a 1m x 2m Decca Tree would be easy to do for you guys, and would be an interesting product if priced reasonably as well...

[Ken K]

I ordered this mic bar Dec. 1st. I got an email Dec. 17th that it had been shipped on Dec. 6th with a tracking number for Swiss Post. The only thing I was able to learn from the tracking number was that it left Switzerland Dec. 12th.
It is now Jan 1st and still no mic bar. Not sure if I'm just supposed to EAT IT or not. The pictures look great though.

[0VU]

Originally Posted by Ken K

I ordered this mic bar Dec. 1st. I got an email Dec. 17th that it had been shipped on Dec. 6th with a tracking number for Swiss Post. The only thing I was able to learn from the tracking number was that it left Switzerland Dec. 12th.
It is now Jan 1st and still no mic bar. Not sure if I'm just supposed to EAT IT or not. The pictures look great though.

I was in the same position as you Ken, and having ordered 5 bars (some for friends) I was getting a very uneasy feeling. I Googled Ueli and Soundworx and found plenty of info - enough to be reassuring - and this morning the bars turned up so they were waiting for me this afternoon when I returned from a few days holiday. It seems the shipping was just painfully slow.

And very nice they are too (as far as bits of black metal with engraved rulers and some slidey bolts can be things of beauty!). They were worth the wait - even if they did miss the usual Christmas recording/broadcast chaos.

Hopefully things will speed up now that Christmas backlogs should be clearing.

[klaukholm]

We had a whole bunch of stuff take about a month and more longer to ship than it was supposed to. Same goes for my orchestra which had to change the program for this weekend due to severely delayed parts and scores (months behind)
All thanks to the ex government postal (no-) service

[Ken K]

Originally Posted by 0VU

I was in the same position as you Ken, and having ordered 5 bars (some for friends) I was getting a very uneasy feeling. I Googled Ueli and Soundworx and found plenty of info - enough to be reassuring - and this morning the bars turned up so they were waiting for me this afternoon when I returned from a few days holiday. It seems the shipping was just painfully slow.

And very nice they are too (as far as bits of black metal with engraved rulers and some slidey bolts can be things of beauty!). They were worth the wait - even if they did miss the usual Christmas recording/broadcast chaos.

Hopefully things will speed up now that Christmas backlogs should be clearing.

Well let's hope the US Postal Service comes through. Glad to see there are some satisfied customers. It's Jan. 3 and still waiting here.

[tenor39]

Me, too...

[sonare]

Any response to the the request for a 1m version?

Rich

[soundworx]

I'm checking the thing with the 1m version. Also I will check the possibility to make a 2mx1m Decca-Tree-Setup. But this needs a little time...

It's quite uncertain, how many of this bars could be sold. And I don't want to produce 30 pieces, when I sell only 10 of them. Until now I got only three requests for 1m bars.

As I heard, the first bars arrived in the U.S. So i guess, that the others will follow them immediatly... Sorry for this slow shipping again!

kind regards,
Ueli

[sonare]

I was just going back through some correspondence with a former Decca engineer, and he categorically stated, "As for the tree dimensions, they should be 137cm from left to right mic with the Centre sticking out 68.5cm."

It appears that there is confusion on tree dimensions. Yes, this is not legally enforced, but when a Decca engineer tells me precisely what to do, I listen. And you are correct that you can make a tree out of 3 bars, with the added benefit that the center arm can have a bit hanging over the center point to attach a counterweight. Even with small mics the moment resulting from a 68.5cm arm should not be underestimated. It will be safer and last longer with the counterweight.

He went on to say, " For orchestral recordings we would use left and right outriggers - anything between 7'-10' from the centre. Obviously the panning of the tree is important. It should not be hard left and right. The centre mic placement should measure one foot back from the front of the orchestra. It is a frequent mistake to move the mics into the orchestra for more strings - moving the mics away is better. The heights typically are 9'6" to 10'09" but I have had tree and outrigers as low as 7' and high as 11' - it depends on the orchestra / venue / repertoire and probably a lot more!"

Hopefully this will clarify things for the tree crowd!

RIch

[Recording David]

My bar arrived today...

[0VU]

Originally Posted by sonare

I was just going back through some correspondence with a former Decca engineer, and he categorically stated, "As for the tree dimensions, they should be 137cm from left to right mic with the Centre sticking out 68.5cm."

It appears that there is confusion on tree dimensions. Yes, this is not legally enforced, but when a Decca engineer tells me precisely what to do, I listen. And you are correct that you can make a tree out of 3 bars, with the added benefit that the center arm can have a bit hanging over the center point to attach a counterweight. Even with small mics the moment resulting from a 68.5cm arm should not be underestimated. It will be safer and last longer with the counterweight.

He went on to say, " For orchestral recordings we would use left and right outriggers - anything between 7'-10' from the centre. Obviously the panning of the tree is important. It should not be hard left and right. The centre mic placement should measure one foot back from the front of the orchestra. It is a frequent mistake to move the mics into the orchestra for more strings - moving the mics away is better. The heights typically are 9'6" to 10'09" but I have had tree and outrigers as low as 7' and high as 11' - it depends on the orchestra / venue / repertoire and probably a lot more!"

Hopefully this will clarify things for the tree crowd!

RIch

That sounds to me like someone describing their personal preferred setup rather than anything definitive. Or perhaps he was pulling your leg with the precision of the answer :) It's often hard to tell when chatting to these people whether they're being serious, flippant, or comedically misleading for devilment :p However, the guidelines about moving away for more strings generally hold good (though there are cases when it doesn't work).

The thing is that if you talk to ten different Decca/exDecca engineers, you'll likely get ten different answers along those lines.

I know several Decca/ex-Decca people, both as friends and colleagues, including people who worked there in the 1950s, 60s and 70s, working on and through the development and arguably the heyday of the Decca Tree, and whilst they all agree about the basic idea of three mics in a triangle, they all have a different take on things like sizes and positions. At least one contends that on many records the outriggers and spots were more important to the 'Decca sound' than the tree itself. (He actually said - "I never liked it for the mains; I did it all on the spots; the Tree made a damned good ambience pickup though".) Whereas other Decca people say that it's all down to getting the Tree (or Tree+outriggers - they weren't always used) right and using as few spots as possible. It depends upon to whom one is speaking (and their mood on a given day!).

The only thing they all agree on is that too many technique writers claim absolutes for it when its practical application is no more an exact science than any other mic technique, probably less so than many, and it's dimensions, angles, position, and mix setup varied quite considerably from job to job, particularly according to size of ensemble, venue acoustics and engineer/producer preference for the balance of room and ensemble and the desired portrayal of space. It also constantly evolved in its application and setup. They all have favourite 'starting points' according to venue/ensemble/etc. and most evolved a personal set of 'rules' which worked for their specialist area - repertoire/artist list/programme/venues/etc. - as it sounds like the person cited above had done, but none of these were set in stone or any kind of company policy.

They also generally agree that the Tree was normally smaller than the 6'x4' size commonly referenced for it, also that nothing was standard and that looking at pictures of Decca sessions for guidance is at best unreliable as many engineers used to move the mics out of place specifically for the photo shoots, to make it harder for people to 'steal' their setup information.

Decca's engineers were no more slaves to the Tree than anyone else. They've a long history of technical innovation, experimentation, and development, and within the basics of their three mic triangle there are loads of variations. Outriggers (and spots) come and go as required; mics change; the sizes, angles, panning and relative levels of the tree vary according to taste and occasionally the centre mic may be dropped altogether. So unless you happen to be trying to recreate a specific session and have the same venue, rig and very similar sounding players, details like a precise tree spacing, whilst interesting and useful as a start point for experimentation, are not really to be taken as absolute - whomever they come from.

It's also important to remember that the Tree was developed and evolved in an environment where great attention was paid to getting the right combination of programme/performers and room, and, though very flexible, it's not a catch all technique that's forgiving of inadequacy in any of these areas.

Anyway, OT - sorry.

[LX3]

Originally Posted by 0VU

I know several Decca/ex-Decca people, both as friends and colleagues, including people who worked there in the 1950s, 60s and 70s, working on and through the development and arguably the heyday of the Decca Tree, and whilst they all agree about the basic idea of three mics in a triangle, they all have a different take on things like sizes and positions....

[edit]

Anyway, OT - sorry.

Maybe.. but what a great post! Thanks.

[sonare]

Originally Posted by 0VU

That sounds to me like someone describing their personal preferred setup rather than anything definitive. Or perhaps he was pulling your leg with the precision of the answer :) It's often hard to tell when chatting to these people whether they're being serious, flippant, or comedically misleading for devilment :p However, the guidelines about moving away for more strings generally hold good (though there are cases when it doesn't work).

The thing is that if you talk to ten different Decca/exDecca engineers, you'll likely get ten different answers along those lines.

I know several Decca/ex-Decca people, both as friends and colleagues, including people who worked there in the 1950s, 60s and 70s, working on and through the development and arguably the heyday of the Decca Tree, and whilst they all agree about the basic idea of three mics in a triangle, they all have a different take on things like sizes and positions. At least one contends that on many records the outriggers and spots were more important to the 'Decca sound' than the tree itself. (He actually said - "I never liked it for the mains; I did it all on the spots; the Tree made a damned good ambience pickup though".) Whereas other Decca people say that it's all down to getting the Tree (or Tree+outriggers - they weren't always used) right and using as few spots as possible. It depends upon to whom one is speaking (and their mood on a given day!).

The only thing they all agree on is that too many technique writers claim absolutes for it when its practical application is no more an exact science than any other mic technique, probably less so than many, and it's dimensions, angles, position, and mix setup varied quite considerably from job to job, particularly according to size of ensemble, venue acoustics and engineer/producer preference for the balance of room and ensemble and the desired portrayal of space. It also constantly evolved in its application and setup. They all have favourite 'starting points' according to venue/ensemble/etc. and most evolved a personal set of 'rules' which worked for their specialist area - repertoire/artist list/programme/venues/etc. - as it sounds like the person cited above had done, but none of these were set in stone or any kind of company policy.

They also generally agree that the Tree was normally smaller than the 6'x4' size commonly referenced for it, also that nothing was standard and that looking at pictures of Decca sessions for guidance is at best unreliable as many engineers used to move the mics out of place specifically for the photo shoots, to make it harder for people to 'steal' their setup information.

Decca's engineers were no more slaves to the Tree than anyone else. They've a long history of technical innovation, experimentation, and development, and within the basics of their three mic triangle there are loads of variations. Outriggers (and spots) come and go as required; mics change; the sizes, angles, panning and relative levels of the tree vary according to taste and occasionally the centre mic may be dropped altogether. So unless you happen to be trying to recreate a specific session and have the same venue, rig and very similar sounding players, details like a precise tree spacing, whilst interesting and useful as a start point for experimentation, are not really to be taken as absolute - whomever they come from.

It's also important to remember that the Tree was developed and evolved in an environment where great attention was paid to getting the right combination of programme/performers and room, and, though very flexible, it's not a catch all technique that's forgiving of inadequacy in any of these areas.

Anyway, OT - sorry.

This actually agrees with his further comments:

" There were no strict mic set-up guidelines as such
- we all ploughed the same well-worn furrow that had previously been
ploughed, I suppose. B&Ks were always regarded as a bit bland at Decca so
we never used them. Jimmy Lock (who succeeded Kenneth Wilkinson as head of
the department) was in favour of us (then) younger engineers experimenting
with mic set-ups. Wilkie, on the other hand, would condemn a recording
that was not done accoring to previous (more often "his") custom and
practice regardless of whether it was any good or not!"

At the very least this all makes for interesting reading, and proves that common sense and good ears will ultimately prevail.

[Ken K]

I ordered this mic bar Dec. 1st. I got an email Dec. 17th that it had been shipped on Dec. 6th with a tracking number for Swiss Post. The only thing I was able to learn from the tracking number was that it left Switzerland Dec. 12th.
It is now Jan 10th. Not here yet! What me worry?

[Joba]

Still waiting for mine as well.

[soundworx]

Originally Posted by Ken K

I ordered this mic bar Dec. 1st. I got an email Dec. 17th that it had been shipped on Dec. 6th with a tracking number for Swiss Post. The only thing I was able to learn from the tracking number was that it left Switzerland Dec. 12th.
It is now Jan 10th. Not here yet! What me worry?

But I'm doing everything to clarify this case. I caused an investigation to be made by Swiss Post. They started and I'm waiting for results. I apologize for the trouble caused! Sorry.

[Remoteness]

I am not very happy about how this thread has developed.

This forum must not be a platform for selling merchandise.

Every now and then I have let a few "For Sale" threads come through this forum because I felt it could benefit the forum members at large.

IMO, this thread is completely over the top and running out of control.
You have a person that has never posted anything, but posts about the product he’s pimping. I am not comfortable with the situation up to now.

I believe folks get the false impression that everything is authenticate, safe and sound because that’s how we like to run things around here. Please do not expect that unless I have verified the person and felt that the level of service will equal or exceed the quality of this forum as a whole.

From now on, no one shall be allowed to post a "for Sale" thread unless they PM or email me for permission.
If I do not feel comfortable about it the thread shall be removed from this forum or entirely deleted.

I may consider deleting this thread, but for now it's online as a soundboard.
I plan to wait until everyone has chimed in and has been satisfied.

I would like to know how many people ordered and paid for these items, but did not receive them yet?
Please list the date it was paid in full.

I'm all ears -- if you paid for one and received it, let us know.

That may give us a better picture of the matter at hand.

[Recording David]

Yes, I received mine on January 4. It took about a month to get here (UK) from Switzerland, which was longer than I hoped or expected. From my end the problem was that Switzerland is not in the EU, so that slows things down for customs reasons, add to that the fact that it was posted during the holiday season and that massively slows everything down. Add to that the fact that it was sent by Swiss post (not an independent courier) and that slows things down again.

The product is superb - it's pretty much the same as the DPA bar which sells for almost 4 times as much.

To his credit the seller sent me tracking information when the bar was shipped, and it seems to have been shipped 2-3 days after I paid for it.

IMO the seller is not knowingly at fault and the problem for the USA guys is the distance the bar travelled coupled with the holiday post. I know this doesn't make it easier for you guys in the States - when you pay for something you want it fast!!

Again IMO, I know it's maybe not good form to just show up and pimp a product on the forums, but in this case I believe this mic bar is of particular interest to the remotesters, especially at the price.

Maybe next time the seller might use a courier that actually guarantees shipping times (like FedEx and UPS, among others).

[Ken K]

I want to state up front that I have great respect for this forum and the job Steve Remote has done moderating it. If I am guilty of crossing a line in my posts regarding not receiving the mic bar I ordered then I accept guilt. I have not tried to make a personal attack just state the fact that the item I ordered has not been received.

Never the less I did pay for a product that the seller has so far been unable to deliver. When I first contacted him I got no response. I inquired as to if it was insured and got no answer. At least now there is some acknowledgment that something is amiss on the delivery end. I did file a claim with paypal however that has yet to be resolved. So far there has been no effort on the part of the seller to resolve it beyond saying he contacted Swiss Post.

If some think I'm being impatient all I can say is I waited a month before contacting the seller while he got my payment up front. Even taking the holidays into account we aren't living in the days of the horse and buggy anymore.

[Remoteness]

Ken, I am very glad you spoke up.
I also appreciate the way you handled yourself and this situation.

I allowed this "Sales" thread to happen because I thought it would benefit our community.
IMO, Soundworx seems to only be interested in selling their product.
They have not contributed any other posts to date.
It's a crying shame and I promise this sort of thing will never happen again on my watch.

Does anyone else have something to say (pro or con) about this situation?

Let it be known.

[RichS]

I ordered one on Nov. 30th and also received an email stating that it was shipped on Dec. 6th and should take about 2 weeks. The bar arrived on Jan 4th. There was, however, a problem with damaged packaging. The box (which seemed substantial enough) had been ripped open and was missing the mic 4 screws. The package was marked "Received Damaged" by US Postal Department, so it most likely was mishandled by SwissPost. The bar itself was in good condition (had a minor scuff mark which came off after I cleaned it).

I exchanged a few emails with Ueli that day, which were promptly and politely answered. I suggested he send me the 4 mic screws in a small padded envelope by what would be their "first class" mail (which should be faster than parcel shipping). He agreed. He sent me an email the next day saying that screws had been shipped.

He did apologize for the delay and said that SwissPost was pretty much his only choice as UPS shipping would have been $180 (US) and FedEx would have been $150 (US). I did check with both UPS and FedEx and that was an accurate estimate.

The bar is very nicely made, and although I too was concerned about the shipping time, was certainly worth the wait.

I'll post again when the mic screws arrive.

[larsfarm]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Does anyone else have something to say (pro or con) about this situation?

Let it be known.

Ordered mine dec 27. It arrived here in Sweden early this week. Switzerland is outside of EU so there was customs to deal with. The bar looks very good. Pretty much like K&M 23550 except its 80 cm and has the ruler marks and four instead of two screws. Four times the size, ten times the price. Delivered exactly as advertised.

L

[soundworx]

Sorry, but I have to clarify this situation, because there is a lot of untrue statements:
- I'm always responding to e-mails very quickly. A lot of my customers can confirm that. It's not true, that I didn't repsond to e-mails.

- This 3 packages to the USA which didn't arrive until now, are a problem! Thats true! I'm really sorry for that! But I'm doing anything I can, to arrange it as fast as possible. I brought an action to Swiss Post. They are searching for this 3 packages now. That's all I can do. I can not help them search... ;-)

- I'm not making a big business and earn a lot of money! Not at all. As I told you in my first posts, I'm selling this bars at production costs. It's a service for all remote recorders and I made this post to make you a kind of present (which unfortunately didn't recieved before chirstmas...). If you don't want to buy this bar, you can buy one of Schoeps or DPA and pay a multiple. It was only well-meant.

- I have a lot (about 50) happy users of this bar all over Europe. Shipping has never been a problem.

I absolutely hope, that this thread will find a happy end, and that everybody sees that as an opportunity and not as "rip-off".

And to the question, why I'm not active in your forum:
- I not dare because my english is not so good.
- At the moment I have not so much time for that
- BUT I'll better better myself, because I'm interessted in your stuff! ;-)

In the hope I restored the confidence, I greet you all!

Ueli

[Remoteness]

Ueli,

Thank you for posting a reply.

I believe you're story and feel the problems that have happened are based more on not thinking things through and that is totalling understandable with any "start up" situation.

Sometimes folks jump into the sales side of things without working out all the other details involved with making it completely successful in all areas not just the product quality side.

Furthermore, your English is just fine. We understand you completely, so I trust you shall be posting your thoughts on other topics as well in the future.

[Thom]

Originally Posted by soundworx

I'm checking the thing with the 1m version. Also I will check the possibility to make a 2mx1m Decca-Tree-Setup. But this needs a little time...

It's quite uncertain, how many of this bars could be sold. And I don't want to produce 30 pieces, when I sell only 10 of them. Until now I got only three requests for 1m bars.

As I heard, the first bars arrived in the U.S. So i guess, that the others will follow them immediatly... Sorry for this slow shipping again!

kind regards,
Ueli

Ueli,

I would also be interested in a 1m x 2m set of bars.

And, don't worry, your English is fine.

Thom