Kelly Clarkson at halftime in Detriot

[Ken Walker]

Originally Posted by xmostynx

lol i got a production degree. but my focus was in audio/acoustics. my view is, if i went to school with just a focus in engineering- thats all i could do..however school taught me how to produce-more or less, know the big picture.

don't get me wrong- my associates alone got me a great job- most people my age work all week to make what i make in 3 days- and thats not even including my home studio income. so i joke about my degree and the money i spent (private school out of state=ass rape) but i will say i had a good time- i met alot of cool people..and i grew up!

if and when i get out of debt- i will buy a bmw- just because i'm sick and tired of driving pontiacs and chevys...hahaha i want heat under my ass dude!

still i would love to work with anyone doing halftime shows. bad or good gig, i'll do them all.

+1 to you!!

[Ken Walker]

Originally Posted by zboy2854

I don't think he's talking about the celebrities or artists themselves, who create all sorts of beefs (real or contrived) for the purposes of publicity, and are almost expected to act out and say stupid things, etc. I think he's talking about the everyday professionals who work within the industry, that is, the ones who rely on their good reputations and professionalism to continue to get work for themselves.

I don't know of any self-respecting high level producer, engineer, session musician etc. who thinks that publically slagging on or putting down another artist or fellow craftsman within the industry is a good idea. That's what you call 'burning bridges', because talking shit always has a funny way of coming back around in this industry. tutt

This makes sense.

[Pericles]

Originally Posted by zboy2854

I don't think he's talking about the celebrities or artists themselves, who create all sorts of beefs (real or contrived) for the purposes of publicity, and are almost expected to act out and say stupid things, etc. I think he's talking about the everyday professionals who work within the industry, that is, the ones who rely on their good reputations and professionalism to continue to get work for themselves.

I don't know of any self-respecting high level producer, engineer, session musician etc. who thinks that publically slagging on or putting down another artist or fellow craftsman within the industry is a good idea. That's what you call 'burning bridges', because talking shit always has a funny way of coming back around in this industry. tutt

If that's what he meant then I'll go with it. That explanation is reasonable.

[soultrane]

Originally Posted by zboy2854

I don't know of any self-respecting high level producer, engineer, session musician etc. who thinks that publically slagging on or putting down another artist or fellow craftsman within the industry is a good idea. That's what you call 'burning bridges', because talking shit always has a funny way of coming back around in this industry. tutt

depends on what u mean by "publicly."

spend a day chilling at amp in north hollywood (or s.i.r. or cole) and you'll get slagging that make this little thread look downright congratulatory...

specifically, if kelly's background singers are like most other background singers on national tours, they have already been on the phone complaining about something or other that happened on that date...

[dbbubba]

If you don't actually work with real professionals and only read the sanitized press that the publicity departments alllow to appear before your eyes then you might think that REAL professionals don't criticize one another.
If you have ever been part of the professional music world you'd see a different story.

The problem that a lot of people have is that they refuse to live in a reality based world.
They want to believe that their favorite stars come from a race of gods.
As soon as you try to burst their bubble and talk in real terms like the physiology of the human voice as a musical instrument you start to pull the gods into the world of evryday experience.
That takes all the fun away.

Also, if you want to dissagree with me about why Ms. Clarkson sounded bad the other day then I'll let you play a recording of that performance for any vocal teacher who is not a shyster, or any M.D. that treats vocalsits. I'll give you $100.00 if they tell you that the weather that day at Texas Stadium caused Ms. Clarkson's vocal problems I'll give you $100.00 if they say that the performance suffered because of bad monitors. I'd give you $100.00 if they said that her vocal problem didn't exist WELL before she hit that stage.
This isn't stuff I am making up... this is common medical knowledge.

...and to the guy who said that he and his wife sang in a band and they got sick the night before...What you heard from Ms. Clarkson didn't suddenly start to happen the night before or minutes before she hit that stage. That is a few weeks of abuse at the very minimum.
Perhaps you didn't read what I said.
I said that she isn't a strong enough vocalist to sing like she does and then sandwhich that gig in the middle of a tour. That is obvious.
Treating that gig like like just another gig is a foolish move if you treasure the opertunity the gig can bring.
Ten million viewers who are not paying to see you or maybe ten thousand concert fans who paid to see you. Is it worth it to win new fans because you are on one of the biggest national TV shows on a major holiday?
Like I said... a smart artist would have scheduled a rest for the period before that gig.
There are ways to make sure that you don't get sick.
The easiest is to not put your body or your voice at risk.
It's called rest.
I have seen too many singers not get adequate rest while on tour and magically they get sick. Obviously health isn't 100% garanteed, but there are ways to make fairly certian that you are not sick.

The first thing that I noticed very early on in her performance was that she had a very fast and un-controlled vibrato. In general I have found that I usually hear this as a precursor to bad performance because the vocalist is nervous or anxious.
Yeah, it was kinda' cold. Yeah, it was a tough gig.
That's the big time. She can always go back to the safe world of waiting tables in Burleson.

I'll tell you what.
Most of the excuses I have seen presented here for Ms. Clarkson's performance are the same ones I have heard from people who sang like shit either on stage or in the studio. It was NEVER their fault.
It was always a bad monitor or cue mix. They always got sick suddenly.
The god of music music just hates them! They have such bad luck.
You never hear, "I wasn't prepared for that gig or sesson."

The views I am presenting come mostly from pros who DON'T suck live.
These are things I have learned from people who DON'T make excuses... they deliver.
They are people who provide for a family, are paying for nice houses, own nice cars because they are professionals.
These are people who have devoted their adult lives to muisc and singing.
They didn't get where they were by winning at an idiotic reality game show!
I pay attention to people who produce results.

By the way ZBOY...
You should keep your ideas of how "too low of levels causes a singer to sing flat and two loud causes a singer to sing sharp." You are either going to spout such naive ideas to a vocalist who knows better and look like a fool or to some one elkse who knows better.
If I was looking for someone to mix monitors (and I do hire guys into that position) I'd pass on you. Take this as a favor that I am telling you this because real monitor mixers know that there are no absolutes.

People generally sing flat because of a constricted airflow or lack of support.
If your vocal chords are constricted due to inflamation then they are too thick to vibrate correctly and with control. If you don't support with an adequate amount of air from your lungs and diaphragm you will be flat.
People who sing sharp are most often having problems centering pitches. That can be from a number of things but it is most often a lack of ear training or knowing what the correct intervals sound like.

I have news... a true vocalist KNOWS where the pitches are. It is just liike I don't need to look at the neck of my guitar after forty years of playing guitar. I know where the notes are. A blind person doesn't need to SEE the notes. If you never really study voice and get to know your instrument then you might need the music track to give you pitch cues.
A good vocalist generally has relative pitch and they are not using the muisc as a refernece to tell them if they are centered on the proper pitch or not.
I know a few vocalists who can sing a song perfectly in tune time and time again with almost no track at all. All they need is the beginning pitch and timing cues.

You are aware that jingle singers and people that sing in the studio on a daily basis DO NOT listen to their live vocal when stacking harmonies.

I have wasted my time talking about this because for some reason too many people want to sugar coat the truth and make excuses for people who they adore.

As a last thing... if you think I have ANY jealousy for ANY person performaing oin stage then you making a wrong asumption. I wouldn't trade my life for THAT life ever!
I've known too many people that can tell you where that road leads. Well, some can't because they are dead.

[dbbubba]

As an addition:

I found this post by ZBOY in another Kelly Clarkson thread.

Do you have some sort of personal agenda here ZBOY?


Quote:
Originally Posted by quietdrive View Post
The record is supposed to be released next week.. June 22nd in Italy and Germany, North America will follow June 26. I doubt they gonna shelve it last minute. I dont even know if that'd be possible.

ZBOY:
The retooling has been going on for a several months, the public is just finding out about the extent of it now. I know this because I'm one of those outside writers who submitted cuts to be considered for the "retooling".

[lowfreq33]

Dbubba-
I won't argue with you regarding the physical mechanism of the human voice. You do have a good understanding of the concept.

But why are you so angry about this? You've expended a lot of energy to complain about a pop star. No, Kelly Clarkson isn't a trained vocalist. She doesn't have a lot of stamina. She does sell records. So what's the big deal? At least she has enough self respect to actually sing, rather than lip sync to a track. I'd rather hear someone sing lke shit than mime a pre-recorded track.

[RockDog]

Originally Posted by kpaw

The one who sounds stupid is you. You made a statement to the effect that professionals never put each other down. He showed you that your statement is incorrect. Now you're pissed off. Time to take your ball and go home with your crytowel.

no i said professionals in general meaning most of them you should read the previous threads before that one then you might get it or maybe not ha ha

[Empire Prod]

Originally Posted by RockDog

I admit that I don't know what I'm talking about.

Thank you sir. that was very big of you.

[RockDog]

Originally Posted by zboy2854

I don't think he's talking about the celebrities or artists themselves, who create all sorts of beefs (real or contrived) for the purposes of publicity, and are almost expected to act out and say stupid things, etc. I think he's talking about the everyday professionals who work within the industry, that is, the ones who rely on their good reputations and professionalism to continue to get work for themselves.

I don't know of any self-respecting high level producer, engineer, session musician etc. who thinks that publically slagging on or putting down another artist or fellow craftsman within the industry is a good idea. That's what you call 'burning bridges', because talking shit always has a funny way of coming back around in this industry. tutt

thats what i meant sorry but zboy corrected me

[RockDog]

Originally Posted by Empire Prod

Thank you sir. that was very big of you.

ha ha your funny empire

[indie]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

...and to the guy who said that he and his wife sang in a band and they got sick the night before...What you heard from Ms. Clarkson didn't suddenly start to happen the night before or minutes before she hit that stage. That is a few weeks of abuse at the very minimum.
Perhaps you didn't read what I said.

Actually, I did read what you said...that's why I brought it up in my reply.

Originally Posted by dbbubba

SICK?
You don't get sick over night.
If you are sick you go to a doctor in advance.
You rest your voice,
They give you steroids.
This is all common stuff that pros practice.
You voice is your instrument and you take care of your instrument.... period.
(She looked quite healthy throwing a football around with the Cowboys on TV earlier during the week.)

Obviously, you said, "sick? people don't get sick overnight". And obviously people do. A broad generalization that's not true.

[indie]

dbbubba listen,

I don't want to come off harsh, but you come off very pissed and pissy. If you're going to act like you know everything...which you do act like, you should experience these things FIRST HAND rather than screaming from the sidelines. As far as I'm concerned, you might has well have gotten your info from google.
I have been on the road touring/singing/performing for years....(not doing monitors or FOH) and we have done the things you say "the pros practice" such as b shots, steroids, etc. and guess what??! It doesn't always work. I know this from experience.

[zboy2854]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

By the way ZBOY...
You should keep your ideas of how "too low of levels causes a singer to sing flat and two loud causes a singer to sing sharp." You are either going to spout such naive ideas to a vocalist who knows better and look like a fool or to some one elkse who knows better.
If I was looking for someone to mix monitors (and I do hire guys into that position) I'd pass on you. Take this as a favor that I am telling you this because real monitor mixers know that there are no absolutes.

Did I ever SAY there were absolutes? No. But as a general rule, in a large number of cases, if a vocalist is consistently flat, turning them up in their headphone mix will help, and if they are consistently sharp, turning them down will help. If you don't recognize this as a possible scenario, then it is YOU who is naive. tutt

People generally sing flat because of a constricted airflow or lack of support.
If your vocal chords are constricted due to inflamation then they are too thick to vibrate correctly and with control. If you don't support with an adequate amount of air from your lungs and diaphragm you will be flat.

And once again this completely ignores the auditory feedback element of the equation. Yes, that is ONE reason someone sings flat. Another is that THEY CAN'T HEAR THEMSELVES PROPERLY.

People who sing sharp are most often having problems centering pitches. That can be from a number of things but it is most often a lack of ear training or knowing what the correct intervals sound like.

See above...

You are aware that jingle singers and people that sing in the studio on a daily basis DO NOT listen to their live vocal when stacking harmonies.

I'm aware that in all my years of engineering and singing, that vocalists request all kinds of things for optimal performance. Whatever makes them the most comfortable. Sometimes it's to have lots of themselves, sometimes it's to have very little with one headphone off or a finger in their ear, etc. Now it's YOU who is talking in absolutes...

I have wasted my time talking about this because for some reason too many people want to sugar coat the truth and make excuses for people who they adore.

LMFBO Didn't you already say earlier in this thread that you were done with it? For someone who compains he's wasting his time here, you sure are good at coming back for more, aren't ya?

[zboy2854]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

As an addition:

I found this post by ZBOY in another Kelly Clarkson thread.

Do you have some sort of personal agenda here ZBOY?


Quote:
Originally Posted by quietdrive View Post
The record is supposed to be released next week.. June 22nd in Italy and Germany, North America will follow June 26. I doubt they gonna shelve it last minute. I dont even know if that'd be possible.

ZBOY:
The retooling has been going on for a several months, the public is just finding out about the extent of it now. I know this because I'm one of those outside writers who submitted cuts to be considered for the "retooling".

LMAO! For someone who claimed he was done with this thread a while back, now you've taken to sifting through my past posts to try and dig up some sort of gotcha? I gotta say, find a hobby or something, because when you start digging through past threads to inform this one, you're spending WAY too much time and effort on an internet message board...

Now, just FYI, I have no agenda other than the fact that I am a professional producer/songwriter/engineer/musician who is privileged to have access to and work with very successful people in this industry, and as a professional, I understand that slagging on other successful professionals is a great way to burn bridges and alienate those who might one day be a potential employer or colleague.

Yes, I pitched songs for Kelly Clarkson. I've also pitched songs for myriad other major artists. If anything, it would stand to reason that the ones that I didn't land placements with would be the ones I'd be inclined to slag. Yet I don't and I wouldn't, because first: it's UNPROFESSIONAL. And second: as a producer, I understand that there are myriad factors, adversities and idiosyncracies that can plague an artist, and as such I understand that everyone has ups and downs, good nights and bad nights. Too bad you're incapable of understanding that.

[indie]

dbbubba says

You are aware that jingle singers and people that sing in the studio on a daily basis DO NOT listen to their live vocal when stacking harmonies.

If you're saying what I think you're saying.......I'm sorry, I just have to comment on this. (I say this only because you spout off like you are the grand poohba of all things regarding singing.)

Well, when I've sung on jingles (yes I have) or when I've stacked harmonies (as a session singer in Nashville for 8 years!!!)
I listen to my "live" vocal when stacking all the time -- and sometimes take an ear off.

[zboy2854]

Originally Posted by soultrane

depends on what u mean by "publicly."

spend a day chilling at amp in north hollywood (or s.i.r. or cole) and you'll get slagging that make this little thread look downright congratulatory...

specifically, if kelly's background singers are like most other background singers on national tours, they have already been on the phone complaining about something or other that happened on that date...

There's a big difference between griping privately to someone in confidence with the expectation that it's a private conversation, and publically blasting someone in the media (internet, print, etc.).

There's a saying that's one of my favorites, and it tends to ring true in many cases -- 95% of professionalism is successfully concealing your contempt. True professionals aren't the ones who never have gripes or strong opinions, they're just the ones who know how and when it's appropriate to voice them and to whom.

[RockDog]

Originally Posted by zboy2854

There's a big difference between griping privately to someone in confidence with the expectation that it's a private conversation, and publically blasting someone in the media (internet, print, etc.).

There's a saying that's one of my favorites, and it tends to ring true in many cases -- 95% of professionalism is successfully concealing your contempt. True professionals aren't the ones who never have gripes or strong opinions, they're just the ones who know how and when it's appropriate to voice them and to whom.

hammer on the nail

[Empire Prod]

Originally Posted by RockDog

hammer on the nail

tutt Try practicing what you preach.

[RockDog]

[quote=Empire Prod;1651842]tutt Try practicing what you preach.[/quot

practise what? what are you on about

[Sounds Great]

Danny's post was spot on.

Yeah he is a bit upset because he is seeing nothing but sorry ass excuses for a second rate perfomance. This from a forum of suppossed professionals. tutt

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by zboy2854

There's a big difference between griping privately to someone in confidence with the expectation that it's a private conversation, and publically blasting someone in the media (internet, print, etc.).

Oooh, we're are all journalists now because we post to an internet forum.

[Empire Prod]

[quote=RockDog;1651909]

Originally Posted by Empire Prod

tutt Try practicing what you preach.[/quot

practise what? what are you on about

I'm just saying that it's not a good idea to be a hypocrite but hey it's your life so YMMV.

[dbbubba]

Originally Posted by indie

dbbubba says

If you're saying what I think you're saying.......I'm sorry, I just have to comment on this. (I say this only because you spout off like you are the grand poohba of all things regarding singing.)

Well, when I've sung on jingles (yes) or when I've stacked harmonies (as a session singer in Nashville for 8 years!!!)
I listen to my "live" vocal when stacking all the time -- and sometimes take an ear off.

Did you?
Well, I have tracked hundreds of radio sings with some of the biggest producers and agencies in the biz.
Down here in Dallas you don't generally feed the live to the vocalists.
It isn't a hard and fast rule, but 99% of the big singers DON'T want the live when stacking parts.
Yes, they do use only one earpiece.
Most all of you in the U.S. have heard recordings I have done this way hundreds of times.

Nashville?
I hope that you sang back when it wasn't the land of Aurotune.
Granted, there were once good vocal tracks cut there.
Great stuff. Now it is robot voice land.

My point was that monitors have NOTHING to do with the problem that Kelly Clarkson was experiencing. If it was then you could make a small fortune selling mics, speakers and amps to doctors!

What YOU of all people should know INDIE is that you PREPARE for an important gig like that. You MAKE SURE that you are not sick. If anything you rest before the gig. I'm talking WEEKS (two?) It isn't hard. That is if you VALUE THE GIG. If you don't then you show up with a blown out voice and sound like like crap.

You did not hear a rested voice the other day.
You heard a lucky, largely amature, girl next door singer who has had the chance to go national because she won an idiotic TELEVISION SHOW.
You heard a singer that doesn't know how to pace herself.

Sure, everyone gets sick suddenly from time to time, but that wasn't the case you heard the other day. What you heard did not start the day before.

I have mixed monitors for some of the biggest names in the biz and if they have a tired voice I can't make them better. I can inly make it harder for them.
I promise you that the person mixing monitors at that show in Dallas has mixed monitors at more gigs than she has ever performed.

The proof of her in-expirience was when she went for the higher note in the second song.
She missed it by at least a step and she should be aware of her material enough to know that is a hard note for her. Like I said, I heard the fast, un-controlled vibrato in the first song which tells me that she wasn't in control of her voice or in good form.
She shoiuld have known that she couldn't hit that note.
An expirienced singer wouldn't have put themselves in the position she was in, but if they were in that position they would know not to try for that note under those circumstances.

Do I sound pissy?
Well, having to defend what is common knowledge to people who want to argue established fact makes me sound that way.
Do I sound like I think I know what I am talking about?
Yes, because people who know the human voice have taught me this.
I'm not making anything up.

What I fail to see is why people want to skirt the issue and not recognize what they saw.

Blaming the monitor rig or operator is just idiotic at beast.
It is purely subjective at best because none of were standing on that stage where Kelly C. was.

You were hearing swollen vocal chords.
If you gigged as mich as you say you have INDIE then you know or have experienced that.

I ask you... if YOU were given that opertunity. Would YOU have sounded that way?

Do you think that she has no control over her health?
If she has that little control over her career and life then I feel deeply sorry for her.

Man! It is easy to argue on the internet isn't it?
If you knew me personally or were face to face with me you wouldn't argaue as passionately as you have.

[RockDog]

[quote=Empire Prod;1651920]

Originally Posted by RockDog

I'm just saying that it's not a good idea to be a hypocrite but hey it's your life so YMMV.

point out where im being a hypocrite then

[Empire Prod]

[quote=RockDog;1651953]

Originally Posted by Empire Prod

point out where im being a hypocrite then

How about all of your posts from before you decided to become PC.

Give it a rest!

[RockDog]

[quote=Empire Prod;1651971]

Originally Posted by RockDog

How about all of your posts from before you decided to become PC.

Give it a rest!

all my posts make sense and i dont need to hack other peoples quotes like you did to me so wtf are you on about

[Empire Prod]

[quote=RockDog;1651983]

Originally Posted by Empire Prod

all my posts make sense and i dont need to hack other peoples quotes like you did to me so wtf are you on about

Someone who goes by the screen name of RockDog is in serious denial.

[RockDog]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

Did you?
Well, I have tracked hundreds of radio sings with some of the biggest producers and agencies in the biz.
Down here in Dallas you don't generally feed the live to the vocalists.
It isn't a hard and fast rule, but 99% of the big singers DON'T want the live when stacking parts.
Yes, they do use only one earpiece.
Most all of you in the U.S. have heard recordings I have done this way hundreds of times.

Nashville?
I hope that you sang back when it wasn't the land of Aurotune.
Granted, there were once good vocal tracks cut there.
Great stuff. Now it is robot voice land.

My point was that monitors have NOTHING to do with the problem that Kelly Clarkson was experiencing. If it was then you could make a small fortune selling mics, speakers and amps to doctors!

What YOU of all people should know INDIE is that you PREPARE for an important gig like that. You MAKE SURE that you are not sick. If anything you rest before the gig. I'm talking WEEKS (two?) It isn't hard. That is if you VALUE THE GIG. If you don't then you show up with a blown out voice and sound like like crap.

You did not hear a rested voice the other day.
You heard a lucky, largely amature, girl next door singer who has had the chance to go national because she won an idiotic TELEVISION SHOW.
You heard a singer that doesn't know how to pace herself.

Sure, everyone gets sick suddenly from time to time, but that wasn't the case you heard the other day. What you heard did not start the day before.

I have mixed monitors for some of the biggest names in the biz and if they have a tired voice I can't make them better. I can inly make it harder for them.
I promise you that the person mixing monitors at that show in Dallas has mixed monitors at more gigs than she has ever performed.

The proof of her in-expirience was when she went for the higher note in the second song.
She missed it by at least a step and she should be aware of her material enough to know that is a hard note for her. Like I said, I heard the fast, un-controlled vibrato in the first song which tells me that she wasn't in control of her voice or in good form.
She shoiuld have known that she couldn't hit that note.
An expirienced singer wouldn't have put themselves in the position she was in, but if they were in that position they would know not to try for that note under those circumstances.

Do I sound pissy?
Well, having to defend what is common knowledge to people who want to argue established fact makes me sound that way.
Do I sound like I think I know what I am talking about?
Yes, because people who know the human voice have taught me this.
I'm not making anything up.

What I fail to see is why people want to skirt the issue and not recognize what they saw.

Blaming the monitor rig or operator is just idiotic at beast.
It is purely subjective at best because none of were standing on that stage where Kelly C. was.

You were hearing swollen vocal chords.
If you gigged as mich as you say you have INDIE then you know or have experienced that.

I ask you... if YOU were given that opertunity. Would YOU have sounded that way?

Do you think that she has no control over her health?
If she has that little control over her career and life then I feel deeply sorry for her.

Man! It is easy to argue on the internet isn't it?
If you knew me personally or were face to face with me you wouldn't argaue as passionately as you have.

you got no idea what your talking about you have not been part of a major band or any kind of entertainment that puts you in a major spotlight like kelly c if you had you wouldnt be saying things like no one gets sick overnight in which many people do, ive spent the last 15 years in the entertainment industry FULL TIME not part time ive been part of shows grossing 40 mill a year and now as a SINGER i know its easy to lose your vocal from time to time an no one can help you but a thing called rest!! but being in kellys positition there is no time for rest to much money is on the line

[indie]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

Man! It is easy to argue on the internet isn't it?
If you knew me personally or were face to face with me you wouldn't argaue as passionately as you have.

I wouldn't? Let me get this straight, not only do you know everything about how every session singer and jingle singer prefer their headphone mix, now you know me better than I know myself? Wow...you must be God. Pleasure to meet you. God, where did you learn to spell the word argue? This has gotten ridiculous. You don't even pay attention to what I'm saying...

I've never blamed the monitors on her behalf. My WHOLE argument is that she's not a bad singer because she had a bad night. That's all.