Kelly Clarkson at halftime in Detriot

[Acoustic Cloud]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

I am presenting a view I have developed after thirty plus years of dealing with vocalists on stage and in the studio. Beginners, never heard of folks, semi famous, legends, Metallica, Black Crowes, James Brown, B.B. King, Carl Perkins, Ray Price, on and on.... a tired voice is a tired voice. You can either be prepared to sing what you put out on a record or not. No excuses. You are either prepared or not. You do what you have to do IF YOU VALUE THE GIG.

I am also presenting views from my wife who is a degreed vocalist from one of the most prestigeous music universtities in the U.S. She knows her S H I T although we are both a few years from live performance work. Ask ANYONE who has heard her and they'll tell you that she is an amazingly talented vocalist. No armchair there for sure. The degree from UNT backs that up. Do the research.

My wife was once asked by Anne Richards who was running for the Governer of Texas to sing at a rally in Austin, Texas. With a few days notice I pulled a music bed of the song they wanted her to perform and we drove to Austin. We figured that she'd get axed at the last minute, but to our amazement Anne Richards grabbed my wife's arm and said, "You start this thing off, girl." She was started the rally.
My wife walked out on stage with only a handheld mic, NO MONITORS and I ran a CASSETTE. The crowd was estimated at one hundred twenty thousand as I recall.
She wailed and it was not an easy song to sing (I stlll have a copy her dad reorded on a handheld camcorder somewhere.)
I asked her later if she was nervous. She said, "Why should I have been nervous? I know how to sing. How often do you get to sing to a crowd that size?"
I would have been terrified!

Like I said'... if you know your craft it's not that difficult.

If Kelly was prepared that could have been a fun gig for her.
Sadly, she probebly won't get the chance to have that kind of fun at that venue again.

Also, Kelly is in the middle of a tour.
I don't know when it started, but it is in Dallas tonight and has a about six more dates.
They are smaller venues (well, small by old standards.)

Her decision to "go for it" when she wasn't ready was not a great call.
Maybe in a hall she can get away with that performance, but not on national TV.

She knows where she is vocally, so she either doesn't care (a strong possibilty) or she is managed by an idiot who doesn't care or doesn't understand the game.

That was not a gig that you sandwhich into a tour where you run the risk of having a worn ourt, tired voice. Certianly someone was listening on one of the nights prior to yesterday. Certianly someone knows she is struggling. THAT WAS NOT A VOCAL PERFORMANCE FROM A PERSON WHO HAS BEEN KILLING EVERY NIGHT AND THEN HAD A BAD GIG.
A frind of mine played and sang with Leanne Rimes early on and when he gave her a few tips on "reality" she fired him. Of course Leane is in another class than Kelly Clarkson and she has a un-common talent, but this guy was correct in what he said.
I won't elaborate, but what he told her did happen to her career.
She should have listened because this guy is a stuning vocal talent and was her mentor for quite a few years.

Trying to wear the big pants can get you into trouble sometimes.

Again, she knew she was doing this gig a long time ago and certianly the tour was booked afterwards. Is it a hard decision to make? Sound good on national TV at a huge event or do some gigs at regional halls and sandwhich it in the middle?
Bad planning on someone's part.

She should have lip sync'ed.
Most people can't tell.

Don't feel angry if you don't agree with me...
With the current crop of Auto-Tuned artists you'll get to see this type of performance over and over again if they are so bold to want to get up there without a safety net.

...and if you call her a great vocalist you are naive.
At least you have the future open for some real excitement when you hear someone that IS great. the only probelem is that they might not be all pouty and rocking out.
There were probebly twenty or more girls her age that can outsing her in that stadium alone yesterday. This is Texas... we seem to grow 'em on trees.

The other good thing is that a lot of young women (and guys for that matter) saw that and said, "Hell, I can do better than THAT!" Perhaps they will!
God almighty let's hope they do!

OK, I have a studio wall to build and a console to move.

Man, you need to breathe Danny. You sound like someone slamming the estranged daughter-in-law that ran off with all your families farm earnings fer the laist yeer..... Sheesh!

Everyone is taking these performances WAY to seriously! Like the Billy Joel thing/performance, beginning of this year at whatever event it was....

A stupid thread was started minutes after his performance....Super Bowl I think it was..

"OMG BILLY JOEL WAS AUTOTUNED I HEARD IT FROM THE FIRST NOTE!""

maybe he was, but maybe it was the decision of the sound guys to have it on...

IMO, the intensity of jumping on these things is just way out of hand.......

[Pericles]

Originally Posted by Acoustic Cloud

Man, you need to breathe Danny. You sound like someone slamming the estranged daughter-in-law that ran off with all your families farm earnings fer the laist yeer..... Sheesh!

Everyone is taking these performances WAY to seriously! Like the Billy Joel thing/performance, beginning of this year at whatever event it was....

A stupid thread was started minutes after his performance....Super Bowl I think it was..

"OMG BILLY JOEL WAS AUTOTUNED I HEARD IT FROM THE FIRST NOTE!""

maybe he was, but maybe it was the decision of the sound guys to have it on...

IMO, the intensity of jumping on these things is just way out of hand.......

Maybe with Billy Joel it was the shock of seeing (hearing?) such an excellent singer and musician using Autotune, which seems to be one step above devil worship on these boards.

[joelpatterson]

It's a little bit funny, but I think Billy Joel sucks! and always has! and always will! and I think crucifying him and Kelly Clarkson and all them other whatever you wanna call 'em is an EXCELLENT IDEA, GOD, I GET SO SICK OF THESE LAME NAUSEATING PERFORMERS AND ALL OF THEIR HORSESHIT!

[soultrane]

Originally Posted by zboy2854

I can tell you that even with the best of vocalists, how they hear themselves in the monitors (or headphones) makes ALL the difference in how their instrument reacts.

must be why caruso sucked so bad live...

[soultrane]

i saw kelly clarkson sing "why haven't i heard from you" on the country music channel at a reba mcintyre tribute, and i thought she was pretty solid...

i was pretty amazed at how bad the halftime show was, and since i know she can sing, my first thought was, this girl has NO material... at least, not any halftime material...

all her songs are these introspective, melancholy, depressing "it sucks to be 32, world famous, and rich" type of tunes... exactly NOT the kind for a football crowd on thanksgiving day.

i don't know why she was booked for that gig... she doesn't have any kind of catalogue that would impress a halftime crowd... total mismatch...

however, IF i was her management, i would have told her to ditch the original material and do some of that fun / patriotic / pseudo pop-country stuff that she can nail.

but then, anyone who can say of clive davis "he's 80 years old, he's not supposed to like my music" as if what she was doing is hipper than "bitches brew" was when clive oversaw it for columbia probably isn't going to take career advice from anyone.

[richiepalooza]

You guys crack me up!!! It was just a gig.

dbbubba, I'm glad your wife is so great, with a degree and everything. I'll bet your kids are the smartest ones in class, too.

I'm as grumpy an old man as the next guy, but I think that we're all missing a few important points.

1) It wasn't a career making opportunity. Idol was. (Just for the record, I hate idol. Music shouldn't be competitive. It should be poetic, artistic, communication of our human condition. Or it should rock. Also, children don't have the life experience to do the things they're asked to do on those type of shows. It's exploitive.)

2) The Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders looked fantastic, whatever their performance. Although, they never get enough camera time. (Again, for the record, Making the Team with the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders is one of my favorite shows. It, too, is exploitive. But it's the good kind.)

3) America's Team. . . The Lord's Team, THE Dallas Cowboys prevailed over the evildoers. (I'm not sure how, exactly, but this must be good for the troops.)

4) It was just a f*ckin' gig. Leave the girl alone. Who knows what time her fancy bus rolled in, whether or not she had a cold, whether or not she could hear, etc., etc. Hell, the rhythm section couldn't even figure out how to turn on their amps!

You know what, if the check cleared it was a good gig. She probably had another one the next night, and the next and the next. She'll get another chance to get right.


With the state of music these days, those of you bitching and moaning about one 10 minute performance at a half time show just might be missing the forest for the trees.


Good Luck,
Richard Diaz de Leon

[RockDog]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

Unequivocaly?
Pretty big assumption there ZBoy!
Want to research my credentials?
Want to find out how much I have sang on a stage?
Want to find out how many people, much less name acts I have mixed monitors for?
Want to find out how many people, much less name acts I have mixed F.O.H for?
Want to know what quite a few vocalists would say about my knowledge live? On tour?
I was singing in front of crowds n 1972. I've done it. Most importantly, I have worked with some of the biggest names in the industry and learned a few things.

Want to talk about the physiology pf the human voice as an instrument?
My wife is a graduate of UNT Vocal Department Class of '87.
I was with her the whole time while she completed her degree.
I learned a few things from her studies and her.
Do you think I said all of that and I don't know anything about vocals?

If you have been in Ms, Clarkson's place thousands of times before than I really feel sorry for you.

The very fact that she was singing in front of milions is why she should have made ABSOLUTLY SURE that conditions were right. Other performers have been called intollerable bitches because they made sure everything was right. Their ass was on the line. They cared enough.

Ms. Clarkson's poor performance wasn't because of bad stage monitors.
All she had to do is sing to a track. That is the easiest monitor requirement of all!
Her poor performance wasn't because of the weather.
Her problems started well before she hit that stage yesterday.

He big problem?
She chooses to be a "wailing rock singer."
She clearly doesn't know how to do that without abusing her voice.
What you saw was the real Kelly Clarkson.
If anyone was smart they'd learn from what they saw instead of making excuses for her.

I could go through a huge list of artists who could have AND HAVE performed and pulled off a good performance in those "adverse conditions." I Used to know Mike Maitland who plays drums with the Goo Goo Dolls and I am sure that he didn't suck at the halftime show he played at!

That gig was not an "adverse situation"!
It was the oportunity of a lifetime career-wise!
You either can control the situation or you can't.

Singing to a recording of a silly ass rock song is not a crap shoot.
It has been pulled off hundreds of times before by others.
If you know your craft.

Like I said, in todays world, if you knew you couldn't pull it off THEN LIP SYNC like everyone else!
Maybe she isn't aware of her abilities enough to know if she could sing the "hard" parts.
Maybe she doesn't know the upper limit of her head voice.

Learn from what you saw.

Also ZBoy, when you record a vocalist that is having problems like Ms. Clarkson was having yesterday do you simply turn up the monitors and they suddenly get better?
Can monitors make a blown out/abused voice any better?
The "damage" did not occur on that stage. The problems with her performance did not occur because of how her voice reacted with the monitor mix.
She knew where she stood well befre she walked up the stair.
Well... if she has ANY brains she did.

anyway whats so good about having a degree in music? the greatest singers an songwriters and guitarists in history haven't had a degree of any type most of them cant read music at all so your wife having a degree doesn't impress me an not only that some of the greatest sound engineers haven't got degree's either

[xmostynx]

i would be happy to record this girl, and i would be happy to work with anyone, degree or not. live or studio.

i just wanna record and mix music..i have mixed so many bands that sucked... and i made them sound great!!! and i've mixed great bands and made them sound like shit! haha we all started, and we are all at our different levels of ability. she had a bad gig..

the whole degree thing- if i could do it over, i would invest all the money i spent on books, pot, pizza, beer, and oh yea! classes! and i would have a nice toft 32 channel board, a nice room to put it in, another set of monitors, another video monitor, a nice BMW, and some classic outboard..

instead this degree has given me- another bill!!!

it seems like the poor girl had a bad gig...and since she was on at halftime- she gets it raw...how many clubs have you walked into and heard someone having a bad gig?

hell- how many of us engineers have had just fvcked up days? and on those days, how many people have come up and said main it sounds GREAT! and your sitting there looking back like... are you kidding!

perception- ease up a bit guys. so many people so angry all the time!

[w_stylz]

Anytime you hear something on TV, the compression used for the audio/video and the lack of mixing quality is going to severely affect the way it sounds. I think her performance is not the greatest but not that bad either. There is a website with some truly horrific performances by Enrique iglesias and others. She is like twice as loud as all the instruments so any problems with her voice are going to stick out. That being said, "since you been gone" sounded like she was severely straining her voice - like she has a bad cold or something or was drinking Jack daniels and smoking lucky strikes the day before. It also could be the result of not being able to hear oneself in the monitor mix. as cheesy as it sounds, to do this, she would have sounded better if there was a midi triggered autotune pitch track playing behind her the whole time - but that is cheating I guess.

[kpaw]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

It's a little bit funny, but I think Billy Joel sucks! and always has! and always will! and I think crucifying him and Kelly Clarkson and all them other whatever you wanna call 'em is an EXCELLENT IDEA, GOD, I GET SO SICK OF THESE LAME NAUSEATING PERFORMERS AND ALL OF THEIR HORSESHIT!

Hmm...I'm not going to knock a guy who writes his own material, performs his own material, and just puts on a hell of a show live. He's not my favorite but Kelly isn't close to being in his league, and never will.

Just my opinion.

[kpaw]

Originally Posted by xmostynx

the whole degree thing- if i could do it over, i would invest all the money i spent on books, pot, pizza, beer, and oh yea! classes! and i would have a nice toft 32 channel board, a nice room to put it in, another set of monitors, another video monitor, a nice BMW, and some classic outboard..

instead this degree has given me- another bill!!!

How long have you been paying off your degree? Maybe you got the wrong degree. At least my degrees got me a good job with good pay and no debt after a year.

But believe me, in my fantasies I've thought the same thing. I don't know if I'd go with the BMW, maybe a cheaper car and spend the rest on more gear.

[zboy2854]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

Also ZBoy, when you record a vocalist that is having problems like Ms. Clarkson was having yesterday do you simply turn up the monitors and they suddenly get better?

If you're referring to in the studio, then it depends. If the singer is consistently flat, they obviously need more of themselves in the cans. If they're consistently sharp, probably less. If they're struggling or straining, they probably need a better overall headphone mix, with maybe more compression on the vocal and perhaps some spatial enhancement like reverb or delay. But as a "vocal expert" you already knew all that, right?

Can monitors make a blown out/abused voice any better?

Absolutely yes. It may not fix the damage if the voice is already blown to begin with, but a great monitor mix WILL make it that much easier to sing with whatever is left if the voice is already strained or weak. In fact, I would say that in that scenario, a great monitor mix is even MORE important than ever. But again, you already knew that, right?

[snüzz]

[quote]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

Want to research my credentials?
Want to find out how much I have sang on a stage?
Want to find out how many people, much less name acts I have mixed monitors for?
Want to find out how many people, much less name acts I have mixed F.O.H for?
Want to know what quite a few vocalists would say about my knowledge live? On tour?
I was singing in front of crowds n 1972. I've done it. Most importantly, I have worked with some of the biggest names in the industry and learned a few things.

Want to talk about the physiology pf the human voice as an instrument?
My wife is a graduate of UNT Vocal Department Class of '87.
I was with her the whole time while she completed her degree.
I learned a few things from her studies and her.
Do you think I said all of that and I don't know anything about vocals?

AND he was once the fastest sperm cell over millions of other sperm cells.

[zboy2854]

[quote=snüzz;1649934]

AND he was once the fastest spem cell over millions of other sperm cells.

[soultrane]

Originally Posted by richiepalooza

It was just a gig.

You know what, if the check cleared it was a good gig. She probably had another one the next night, and the next and the next. She'll get another chance to get right.

exactly what clarkson's manager told the distraught singer backstage, the chorus of boos still audible... all the while sending a text message to his home office; "see if jordin sparks will take our calls now."

[zboy2854]

Originally Posted by soultrane

must be why caruso sucked so bad live...

What, just because he didn't have electronic monitoring systems, you don't think the acoustics of the opera houses and the location of the orchestra and way the conductors would conduct them were tailored to benefit how the soloists could hear themselves? Get a clue.

[kpaw]

Caruso? You've seen him live?????? You must be f***ing old, seeing that he died in the early 1920's.

But honestly, live orchestras are loud, even the scaled-down ones used in opera. Opera singers have (had) a whole different set of live sound issues, espically back in the day. You can't in any meaningful way that I know of compare live performances between an opera production and a pop/rock concert from a technical aspect. Apples and oranges.

[RockDog]

its really funny how all the haters on here or critics that post these

''she sux or should do better''

are actually NOBODYS HATING LIFE AN WISH THEY WERE MAYBE IN SIMULAR SHOES TO KELLY OR OTHERS LIKE HER OR MAYBE EVEN HAD THE CHANCE TO RECORD HER!!

you'd never hear this from people that are successful in the music industry whether it be a singer a guitarist a engineer or producer they maybe say
'' well she was probably having a bad night ''

not all this ''i hate this an an she sux an he sux!! , god get a life an put your life frustrations into maybe bettering yourself at whateva you, you'll probably work it out that all the positive you put in will pay off then you might be happy an confident with yourself an wouldnt have to run others down to make yourself feel better

ALOT OF PEOPLE ON HERE ARE JUST AMATEURS TALKING LIKE PRO'S AN HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT ANYTHING REALLY!!

an i love rock but i heavily respect all musicians whether they are good bad or ugly from all genre's

[zboy2854]

Originally Posted by kpaw

Caruso? You've seen him live?????? You must be f***ing old, seeing that he died in the early 1920's.

No, genius. But I have seen plenty of operas, and I know quite a few orchestral musicians, conductors and operatic singers, and the principles are the same today as they were in Caruso's time. Capiche?

But honestly, live orchestras are loud, even the scaled-down ones used in opera. Opera singers have (had) a whole different set of live sound issues, espically back in the day. You can't in any meaningful way that I know of compare live performances between an opera production and a pop/rock concert from a technical aspect. Apples and oranges.

Why do you think orchestras are usually located in the "pit"? It's not because the musicians are ugly, it's to balance them better against the vocalist. And you absolutely CAN compare the physiological effects between the auditory feedback a vocalist receives (in ANY situation) and how it affects their instrument. Doesn't matter what the sound "issues" are, if a vocalist can't hear themselves properly it WILL affect their performance. Sorry, that's just the way it is.

[zboy2854]

Originally Posted by RockDog

you'd never hear this from people that are successful in the music industry whether it be a singer a guitarist a engineer or producer they maybe say
'' well she was probably having a bad night ''

BINGO!! WE HAVE A WINNER.

[kpaw]

Originally Posted by zboy2854

[quoye]No, genius. But I have seen plenty of operas, and I know quite a few orchestral musicians, conductors and operatic singers, and the principles are the same today as they were in Caruso's time. Capiche?

I guess the humor went waaaaay over your head there...genius.

Why do you think orchestras are usually located in the "pit"? It's not because the musicians are ugly, it's to balance them better against the vocalist. And you absolutely CAN compare the physiological effects between the auditory feedback a vocalist receives (in ANY situation) and how it affects their instrument. Doesn't matter what the sound "issues" are, if a vocalist can't hear themselves properly it WILL affect their performance. Sorry, that's just the way it is.

I know that. I've played in my college orchestra. And I know if the vocalist can't hear themselves they will not perform as well. The way that is achieved in operas as opposed to a rock concert are different. That is all I'm saying.

[RockDog]

Oh and professionals never put professionals down nor do they talk bad about an amatuer, Its the silly AMATEURS WANTING TO BE PROFESSIONALS THAT CRIPE AN MOAN ABOUT SUCESSFUL PEOPLE AN CRITICIZE PROFESSIONALS cause they got to much time on there hands an have no work, ''SO WHO CAN WE MAKE FUN OF TODAY'' YOU LOSERS

[Pericles]

Originally Posted by RockDog

Oh and professionals never put professionals down nor do they talk bad about an amatuer, Its the silly AMATEURS WANTING TO BE PROFESSIONALS THAT CRIPE AN MOAN ABOUT SUCESSFUL PEOPLE AN CRITICIZE PROFESSIONALS cause they got to much time on there hands an have no work, ''SO WHO CAN WE MAKE FUN OF TODAY'' YOU LOSERS

You never heard a professional put another professional down? You must be deaf and/or blind. The Elton John-Mick Jaggar feud made the front pages. And who was it that said, during an interview, that "Neil Young was the only one in that band (CSNY) who had any ****ing talent."

People are giving their opinions. They're allowed. If that's how they want to blow off steam, why should you care?