Recording choir in a quire

[Mrdangam]

Hello all. I would appreciate some advice as to how I might best record my high school choir's Lessons and Carols service.

We will be singing in the quire of a church: two sets of three pews which face each other about 10 feet apart. I will have 12 strings, tymp, and a small wind section making a T-shape across the top of the pews. The organ chamber is about 15 feet above the left bank of pews. Everything is enclosed by marble walls.

I have SM81's, matched stereo ribbons, Neumann stereo TM103's, and 2 SDC omnis at my disposal. My idea was to set up a kind of Decca tree with an omni over each set of pews and a stereo pair in front of the orchestra.

Anyone have any thoughts? I would appreciate any feedback.

[David Rick]

Since the singers are facing each other, an obvious thing to try is using mic patterns that are symmetrical front to rear. Both your omni's and your figure-eight ribbons fit the bill. I'd be inclined to try the ribbon mics because you'll have the nulls pointed at the orchestra. I'd try the omni pair as orchestral mains, and figure to get the organ with them, too. Or you could use the SM-81's as a near-coincident pair, and the omni's as outriggers, but I doubt you'll need this on so small an orchestra. That leaves the SM-81's and Neumanns available as orchestral spots.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording

[pkautzsch]

If I got your post right, a 'tree setup with rather large spacings like you describe will probably result in three "sound clouds".
I could imagine 2 MS arrays (ribbon + omni, carefully placed so you get a good balance choir/orchestra), with about 3 to 6 ft space between them. See picture. That would basically be a spaced pair.
In addition, an ORTF pair (TLMs probably) for the front of the orchestra, referred to as "main pair" in the picture, and maybe spots fot the rear orchestra can work (whatever mics you've left). You might swap the omnis and TLMs depending on the room and balance.

[RichS]

From the dimensions given and organ pipes on the wall above the the cantoris choir, I'm estimating the total width of the choir at about 30 feet. I'm also guessing that this isn't St. Paul's, London, and the altar is directly behind the indicated orchestra position.

Seeing that this is probably a fairly enclosed space, and will act somewhat like a band shell (which is what it's designed to work like), I would suggest treating the "choir/altar" area as one entity and mic it from further out. Rely on the music director to balance the singers and instrumentalists. The matched ribbons in a blumlein configuration, slightly high, and angled downward will cover both the choir/orchestra and any organ pipes (trumpets?) on the rear wall of the nave -- and also give your some room reverb. (If this is a traditional L&C's service, there'll be the unaccompanied solo treble voice starting "Once in Royal David's City" at the rear of the church, followed by the choir in procession joining-in on verse two, then adding organ on verse three.)

Use the SM-81's as possible spot mic's on choir soloists (in regular church services, soloists are usually positioned near the congragation end of the choir to have more presence in the room), and the TM-103's as possible spot mic's for the orchestra. The SDC omni's could be added as outriggers for the blumlein pair to allow for some later mixing choices.

[Jim vanBergen]

Excellent suggestions!

In the realm of keeping it simple, you could also try the two ribbons as a blumlein pair in what you consider to be the "center" between the choirs. Personally, I'd try standing there and see if it rocks...it might be awful, might be amazing...but sometimes the basic pair beats all. If the acoustics are passable, it might be worth considering.

[Mrdangam]

Thank you all so much. I am the conductor as well as the engineer on this one.

I have been racking my brain about this.

question- wouldn't a Blumlein pair in the middle have phase problems because the choir is walled in on both sides?

thank you again for your suggestions

[pkautzsch]

The walls behind the choirs will not have any effect on phase issues with any given stereo pair. They can, though, give you a too early early reflexion that will make the room sound "small" (for those more versed in theory: short ITD gap).
You need to be careful with a Blumlein pair, though, NOT to place it between the choirs. If you do that, half of each choir will disappear when summed to mono, as any sound that hits the front (+) lobe of, say, the Left mic and the rear (-) lobe of the Right mic equally loud will cancel out.

[Mrdangam]

I could imagine 2 MS arrays (ribbon + omni, carefully placed so you get a good balance choir/orchestra), with about 3 to 6 ft space between them. See picture. That would basically be a spaced pair.

Is the idea here that each M/S array can be successfully summed to mono, so in the mix, I would send one pair left and the other right, while the ORTF pair provides the basic stereo image?
Thanks

[RichS]

You might be able to get a good BALANCE using two M/S set-ups between the sides, but you won't get a good BLEND! The most important thing with choirs is that you need some "air space" between singers and mic's. You're not just mic'ing the choir/orchestra... you're mic'ing the choir/orchestra/building. Let the building do what it's designed to do.

I have more than 30 years of professional choir/soloist singing experience in churches and cathedrals in the US and Europe... the sweet spot always falls in that 15-25 foot range out in front of the choir.

Keep it simple. Blumlein pair with the SDC omni outriggers.

[Mrdangam]

Keep it simple. Blumlein pair with the SDC omni outriggers


Thanks for your continued response!
Would you place the omnis in the same horizontal plane as the Blumlein pair?

[RichS]

Originally Posted by Mrdangam

Would you place the omnis in the same horizontal plane as the Blumlein pair?

I usually prefer slightly behind the main pair. It depends upon the space available. Just never closer than the main pair.

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by Mrdangam

I could imagine 2 MS arrays (ribbon + omni, carefully placed so you get a good balance choir/orchestra), with about 3 to 6 ft space between them. See picture. That would basically be a spaced pair.

Is the idea here that each M/S array can be successfully summed to mono, so in the mix, I would send one pair left and the other right, while the ORTF pair provides the basic stereo image?
Thanks

Sort of, yes.
Actually it wouldn't necessarily being summing to mono, but just spreading it *a little*: Decode it, pan one channel hard left, the other maybe 50% left - and vice versa with the other MS pair. That will leave you some space for the orchestra in the middle.

Originally Posted by RichS

You might be able to get a good BALANCE using two M/S set-ups between the sides, but you won't get a good BLEND!

And that's what the spaced pair is for in my suggestion.

Let the building do what it's designed to do.

The building might not have been designed to record music in. In fact, most churches have been designed for prayer and a sermon that everyone in the audience will hear.

I have more than 30 years of professional choir/soloist singing experience in churches and cathedrals in the US and Europe... the sweet spot always falls in that 15-25 foot range out in front of the choir.

In a service it might not be possible to place the main pair in the sweet spot.
Apart from that, a "main pair in the sweet spot ONLY" approach will not always sound like you want the recording to sound. Especially a choir *not* facing the mics will sound very very distant, and timpani can easily get very boomy when the orchestra is set up very deep and narrow.
If this was a "standard" setup with one choir behind the orchestra, a main+outrigger thing would probably work well.

[RichS]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

The building might not have been designed to record music in. In fact, most churches have been designed for prayer and a sermon that everyone in the audience will hear.

The location of the choir/organ indicates that it has an important place in the liturgy of this church, and has been positioned to be heard by the congregation. My statement about "letting the building do what it's designed to do" referred to that, not that the building is designed for recording.

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

In a service it might not be possible to place the main pair in the sweet spot.

True enough, but a tall stand w/boom usually gets me where I want to be.

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

Apart from that, a "main pair in the sweet spot ONLY" approach will not always sound like you want the recording to sound. Especially a choir *not* facing the mics will sound very very distant, and timpani can easily get very boomy when the orchestra is set up very deep and narrow.

That's why I initially suggested spot mic's for soloists and orchestra. But when he indicated he was both the conductor AND engineer for the recording I thought "that's a lot on one plate!"... hence my suggestion to "keep it simple." In this situation, simple just might be better. BTW, well-trained choirs will stand "angled-out" towards the conductor and not sing directly facing each other.

Yeah, there are different ways to do this... and all could be equally valid, but some require more expertise than others. It just depends on what's comfortable for Mrdangam in this situation.

RichS