Recording 20 pc Jazz Band-Help!

[gabler]

I am recording a 20 piece High School Jazz Band, not my usual 5-6 piece band. There will be ...
drums,
bass,
keyboard,
1 flute,
3 trombones,
5 trumpets,
7 sax (alto, tenor, baritone)

My mics are AKG 460, 421's, 4033's, SM7, Soundelux 251,
Shure KSM44, Shure 57's Neumann KM84,Soundelux U195

Drums are taken care of with other mics. (Schoeps, etc)
bass and keyboard direct.
My question is...Which mics with what instruments and how many for each instrument? Placement? Etc?
Just wanting to make it sound the best I can I thought 1 mic
for every 2 or three instruments. Please give me your suggestions. Thanks as usual!

It is all being recorded at the same time in the studio. No headphones, the bass and keyboard will have amps to hear themselves. I would have them at the lowest possible volume
and record only the direct signals. will this work since there are no headphones bieng used. (dont have 20 headphones..)

[sonare]

Tell us more about the most important instrument-- the room.

Rich

[gabler]

I have a live room to record in. Wood floors,walls designed for
recording drums,guitars,vocals... Only 8 foot ceilings. 24 x 16???
Not a bad room but not the best for this type of recording.
The drums will be in a separate room next door 8x12 roughly.
The drums will have some isolation. Thanks for your thoughts on this project.

[lowswing]

i was invovlved in recording a 20players bigband few years ago we ended using 24channels almost exlusive neumann tlm170, with schoeps ortf as main stereo.
we miced the drum with mono oh(184) and bass drum (tlm170)
and than each section of the band + solist spot mic.

[Greg Heimbecker]

I'm runnin a mic per horn and regular rythym section stuff for a trk count of 29-32 on big bands... 7 days this month. past session http://www.metropolitanjazzorchestra...A/studio_A.htm

[bongo]

Try to have the director bring an assistant who can direct the band while he is in with you in the control room getting balances on the sound check. Usually with student bands, they will be switching lead players, especially in the trumpet section. Try to have them switch positions as they switch parts, this will give you a fighting chance at a consistent balance.
As far as micing goes, you will have so much sound in that room, anything that you will have will work! The best way I’ve found is to use one mic per horn. Trombones have a hard time sharing mics because there slides get crossed! With trumpets, they will usually set up with first trumpet next to fourth trumpet, so you will have lowest part right next to the highest part.
Solos will be another problem especially with direct to 2 track. High school students aren’t usually real proficient on improvising solos, so you may get a great take and a lousy solo. You may want to think about recording the band direct to 2 if you chose, and then overdub the solos. Check with the director and see what he thinks. Good luck and have fun!

[kevinc]

Thats not what I would have expected.

I allways though big band Jazz stuff was recorded like a lot of classical with just a few mics in a sweet spot and maybe one on the soloist or singer.

Do you guys use room mics as well or is it mostly the instrument mics that are making up the mix ?

[fifthcircle]

I usually record big bands with 5 sax mics, 2-3 trombone mics (2 plus bass), 3 trumpet mics. No more than 4 mics on the set, 2 on the piano, a mic and a direct for the bass. Don't usually use room mics, but that depends on the band and the music. Sometimes, I'll put 3 spaced mics across the horn section. Total track count is under 24 usually...

With your slightly different setup, I'd make sure there was one mic on each woodwind (sax and flute), 2 mics on the bones, 3 on the trumpets, the rest standard... I like the KSM 44s on brass, SM7s are great sax mics.. You may be able to get away with saxes sharing mics and few or no mics on your brass if you have a pair or 3 mics across the front of your horn section...

--Ben

[7rojo7]

1 flute,
3 trombones,
5 trumpets,
7 sax (alto, tenor, baritone)

My mics are AKG 460, 421's, 4033's, SM7, Soundelux 251,
Shure KSM44, Shure 57's Neumann KM84,Soundelux U195

If the drums are isolated I would even try a mono setup (over the snare pointing down, over the shoulder pointing down, 3ft in front of the kik close to the floor), stereo drums will probably be distracting for this music.

if you have more than 2 4033s set them up in x/y where you can get a good image once you have the ensemble in place. you can use this as a reference for panning and later to add a little ambience.

t-bone=421, SM7 works too, for tenor or bass, but at point blank range, possible soloist mic

Altough it's not normally heard of, I recently went somewhere to record and the engineer put an AKG 451 (460, KM84, 4033) in front of a muted trumpet and it was magic (I left my aging RCA jv74 at home) they have to back off if they don't play with a mute and have a pad handy, possible soloist mic
SM7 is a good tpt mic., classic.

Flute will need a good mic and maybe some gobo isolation so in the mix if you turn it up you won't be turning everything else up also. A 421, SM7, KM84, 460 have good off axis rejection qualities, the better mics may be too sensitive if you can't find a good spot for isolation.
How are they going to hear the drums if they are in another room?
Cans for the drummer, the bassist, the keysman, and section leaders (3) 8 total- 3 cue mixes -drums, bass and keys, ensemble, you may not need the amps and could be better off without them, studio monitors for playback?
Put the 251, 195, 4033s infront of each section and provide a soloist mic for each section that you can bring up if needed without cahanging the balance too much provided by the relation of your main pair and your section mics.
Get the sections so that they can hear themselves between sections but still have some degree of isolation. Put the section leaders in front, if there are 1st and 2nd parts, put the 2nds in back with its leader in front of them get a spot mic on them in case of any movements you may have to do in a mix. You should end up with a semicircle of triangles except for the saxes.
I like to get bass instruments towards the middle (all t-bones, Bari and tenor sax, leaving the altosax and tpts to the sides.
just some ideas.
the dynamic and condensor hyper cardiod mics will work better as the spot mics, the LD condensors as section mics and something that is near to matched as a main pair.
Break a leg

[gabler]

Thanks! everyone for your thoughts on this project.
The drums are in a room I started building for vocal,can hear thru
the unfinished window and door. I like the idea of isolating the flute some. I was going to do the drums two sticks above snare
and over shoulder in stereo plus kick. Does everyone agree I shouldnt do stereo? (use only one overhead mic)
What do you think of these mic choices? I only have 2 4033s
3 421s 1 of everything else. I also have a beyer M88 I didnt mention.

Flute=460 or KM84
Trombones 421s
Trumpets 4033s
Saxes KSM44, SM7, 421 or U195

There is going to be a lot of sound in this size room. Is the 2 4033s enough for 5 trumpets? one mic for every 2 sax players?

Thanks again for taking your time on this.

[bongo]

Hi Gabler,
Yes you’re right there will be a lot of sound in the room! There will also be a lot of stuff in the room. From what I see on your instrument list, you will need up to 19 music stands and 18 folding chairs. My room is about 25X28’ with iso booths for the drums, piano, bass and guitar and it’s still a challenge to walk through and adjust a mic.
I’ve recorded lots of big bands. From high school to college to pro and it’s a blast. Remember that the band director is your best friend. He will know what the band is capable of sounding like. With a high school band, as long as you are in the ball park with the sound, they will be just concerned about getting the tune down. Remember that they have probably been hearing themselves in less than ideal circumstances, so you will be a genius!
They are high school students, so the faster you’re ready to record the better. Spend little or no time with EQ. It’s all about balances. This is part of their education as musicians and students, so if time permits, explain what you’re doing!
I’m sorry if I didn’t address more of your technical concerns, but I feel that, in this situation, the personal touch may be more important.
Have fun!!!!

[gabler]

Thanks,everything you said makes sense. Go for balances
and not make the students wait too long. Do you think the mic choices are ok?

[bongo]

You'll be fine. Let us know how you make out.

[recorderman]

I wouldn't isolate the drums.

Everybody in the same room.

Rythm section (bass, gtr, piano) near drums.

Two mics on drums=fine

no "room" mics needed....evrybody's mic is a room mic.

having the players in the same room will give a better performance, and mean now one except for the conductor needs headphones.

If you can have the horns face the rythm section.

That way the cardiod response of the horn mics will give you a subtle isolation.

have fun