Codename Baby9K-- A great idea for mobile & location recording

[jindrich]

thanx, there's been many people behind this.

what is presented here is NOT just a simple summing device but a full (expandable and resetable) tracking and mixing console.


-As a TRACKING MIXER, it is intended to be the centerpiece of the studio, with its inserts, direct outs (pre/post, with independent send levels), st cue+fx sends, 8mono+2stereo buses, and talkback and foldback sections.

-As a MIXING CONSOLE, it doesnt reduce itself to a simple summer. The problem with summers in an hybrid ITB+OTB scenario is that EVERYTHING xcept summing must be done ITB. But if ANALOG OUTBOARD is put after all that, like in: DAW tracks>D/A>outboard>summer, then ALL fx sends have to be PRE analog outboard , which is absolutely not the way it must be done (think about sending all signals -LVOX, guitars, drums, etc- to reverbs BEFORE the inserted 1073/1176/LA2A/550A/distressors..etc).

Hybrid mixing approaches need a real console, with all its FX sends and routing capabilities. The presented "B9K" with all its features and snapshot recall (and optional moving faders) is optimally designed for that.

[Stiff]

I would want two nice pres with it

[Andrew Kinsey]

Originally Posted by jindrich

for the sake of comparison, let me say SSL could build and offer this at around half the price of a comparable Tonelux mixer, Total Recall included)

The way the modular outboard market stands at the momment SSL do currently offer the most affordable 'high end' solution with the X-Rack Series.

To get a rack full of SSL EQ's or Compressors would work out cheaper than getting a similar rack full of 500 series modules, or Tonelux modules for that matter. Half the cost is not a realistic gestimate though!

I would be quite surprised if SSL didn't already have something like this in development.

[jindrich]

Originally Posted by Andrew Kinsey

The way the modular outboard market stands at the momment SSL do currently offer the most affordable 'high end' solution with the X-Rack Series.

To get a rack full of SSL EQ's or Compressors would work out cheaper than getting a similar rack full of 500 series modules, or Tonelux modules for that matter. Half the cost is not a realistic gestimate though!

I would be quite surprised if SSL didn't already have something like this in development.

It's surprisingly true that today SSL offers the most cost-effective outboard pieces on the market, and with Total Recall to boot

I dont want to compare this to Tonelux or anything else (and btw it was conceptually designed way before tonelux ever existed), but the words "half the price" are quite exact. For instance, try to configure a (24ch) Tonelux with the following:

1vrack with 16 mono input modules
1vrack with 16 8-bus routing modules (8 of them with master bus sends)
1vrack with 16 VUmeters
1vrack with 4st input modules with master aux sends+master module+CR module
1rack with 16 standard faders
-------------------------
TOTAL $30k aprox.

now you get something comparable to this...



...only that this would cost half as much.

And this SSL thing still would have some more advantages, first of them being Total Recall (TM), but also a stereo Cue send in every input including in the 4 st inputs, Solo/AFL/PFL and Mute everywhere, pre/post direct outs per channel with dedicated send level, comprehensive talkback and foldback sections and full metering for the busses..etc, etc

A true Superanalogue (and ever expandable) tracking/mixing "console" with automation, with features and price no other manufacturer can match.

[u b k]

Originally Posted by WidgetNinja

Personally, the biggest thing about the Tonelux range is that it looks Console.

personally, the biggest thing about the tonelux is that it SOUNDS console, deep and sweet.


gregoire
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[PhilE]

No, I wouldn't be interested... but I'm sure others would.
For me the ergonomics of a console works great. A centerpiece for the room and the spread of the desk helps me (cos I've always worked that way?)
Best of luck with the product.

[jindrich]

Originally Posted by PhilE

No, I wouldn't be interested... but I'm sure others would.
For me the ergonomics of a console works great. A centerpiece for the room and the spread of the desk helps me (cos I've always worked that way?)

but would you pay TWICE as much, that is, $30k for the Tonelux instead of $15k for the SSL, as still get less features, no TotalRecall and a brand that is not recongized worldwide, just because one looks slightly more like a console than the other?

Originally Posted by u b k

personally, the biggest thing about the tonelux is that it SOUNDS console, deep and sweet.
.

..and it's also more limited because of that "sound". You wouldn't like that "sound" in post, broadcast, fixed installations, film transfers, classical studios etc etc, where SSL's clean, transparent sound approach is much more desirable and universally applicable. there's always a chance to *dirt up* the sound, but not for the opposite.

[u b k]

Originally Posted by jindrich

there's always a chance to *dirt up* the sound, but not for the opposite.

i would never characterize the tonelux sound as 'dirt', if anything i find it to be on the clear tip with a beefy bottom and open top.

ssl 9k also doesn't sound transparent to me, neither does it have a color i desire. i've heard a few that were clean in a nice way, but they were heavily modded.

one man's dirt is another man's treasure, i suppose. and vice-versa.


gregoire
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[voitessestudios]

Until the 9K came out, the real way to "dirt up" a mix WAS to use an SSL. API, NEVE and now TONELUX actually "warm" it up. If you think SSL is "purity" then so is bath water.

[jindrich]

Originally Posted by voitessestudios

Until the 9K came out, the real way to "dirt up" a mix WAS to use an SSL. API, NEVE and now TONELUX actually "warm" it up. If you think SSL is "purity" then so is bath water.

i agree. but im referring to SSL's new superanalogue circuits, on which all current SSL products are based.

dont have much experience with tonelux except for some short glimpse at trade shows (where you can't listen to anything properly). I guess it's in the api ballpark, which surely is not a bad thing. but $30k for a basic 16+4st input 8bus line mixer in a rack without any automation is too much in my book

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by jindrich

I guess it's in the api ballpark, which surely is not a bad thing. but $30k for a basic 16+4st input 8bus line mixer in a rack without any automation is too much in my book

Try the new API and Portico console on for size which both come in around $50K.

When you compare that to the price of a Tonelux $30K don't sound too bad.

The Tonelux sounds like a cleaner & leaner API, more in the 9K ball park than one would think.

[jindrich]

Thrill, if im not mistaken the Portico 5088 sells for $30k, same as a similar Tonelux mixer in a rack.

But the Portico, besides the Neve name, has twice as much auxes, faders for the 8 busses, big retro illuminated switches, more flexible I/O etc, and of course, it looks and feels like a big console.

The Tonelux is a great small system, but its price gets out of the mark when configured to be like a true desk. I would have bought one if it wasn't for that.



Anyway, with the prototype above it is shown how SSL could build and sell the best and most desirable small configurable tracking/mixing Mixers/DAW companions with the biggest amount of features and at prices no other manufacturers could touch.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by jindrich

Thrill, if im not mistaken the Portico 5088 sells for $30k, same as a similar Tonelux mixer in a rack.

Yeah that's without the mic pres or EQ's.

Originally Posted by jindrich

But the Portico, besides the Neve name, has twice as much auxes, faders for the 8 busses, big retro illuminated switches, more flexible I/O etc, and of course, it looks and feels like a big console.

I haven't used or seen the thing up close so i can't really comment.

Basically to me it comes down to the sound anyways.

I have used the Portico pres which i didn't really care for but the EQ's i liked a lot but 16 of them is like $24K alone.

Originally Posted by jindrich

The Tonelux is a great small system, but its price gets out of the mark when configured to be like a true desk. I would have bought one if it wasn't for that.

The best things to me about the Tonelux are the mic pres,EQ's and automation. I haven't heard the comp yet. The system as a whole is clean sounding which is really not my cup of tea but i guess it makes it more versatile for some.

Originally Posted by jindrich

Anyway, with the prototype above it is shown how SSL could build and sell the best and most desirable small configurable tracking/mixing Mixers/DAW companions with the biggest amount of features and at prices no other manufacturers could touch.

Well if they make a frame and armrest for it maybe. I think the whole LEGO blocks thing without a frame looks too thrown together or not seriously professional. To me a console should feel like a mack truck on the road not a Vespa.

You know you should be able to put your feet up on it or take a stupid picture with the excited clients.

Also you keep saying affordable and SSL and affordable just don't go together in my booK(as a former owner and someone who has used SSL's all his life).

Maybe in Europe but here in the states it still expensive.

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by u b k

i would never characterize the tonelux sound as 'dirt', if anything i find it to be on the clear tip with a beefy bottom and open top.

ssl 9k also doesn't sound transparent to me, neither does it have a color i desire. i've heard a few that were clean in a nice way, but they were heavily modded.

one man's dirt is another man's treasure, i suppose. and vice-versa.


gregoire
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Where have you heard all of these "heavily modified" 9k's?

[jindrich]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

Well if they make a frame and armrest for it maybe. I think the whole LEGO blocks thing without a frame looks too thrown together or not seriously professional. To me a console should feel like a mack truck on the road not a Vespa.

You know you should be able to put your feet up on it or take a stupid picture with the excited clients.

here you are


the main idea behind the "Baby9K" is not to offer a BIG console that you can build in pieces; in the end it will be more expensive than the real deal and look uglier, and for big consoles there's already products on offer from SSL.
The idea then is to bring SSL's Superanalogue sound and features in a modular, user configurable fashion (and small enough to be rackable for easy transport), and at much affordable prices. For instance, a basic 24ch (16+4st) full speced line mixer with st Cue, auxes, direct outs, talkback, foldback..etc, in a 6U rack with Total Recall for around $10k (no faders though), or less than $15k when 8bus routing, full metering and analog faders are added. Moving faders with DAW control can also be added (at higher cost).
This is doable 100%, at those prices and with SSL quality.


PS: WHAT is wrong with a Vespa? :)

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by jindrich

here you are


the main idea behind the "Baby9K" is not to offer a big console that you can build in pieces; in the end it will be more expensive than the real deal and look uglier, and for big consoles there's already products on offer from SSL.
The idea then is to bring SSL's Superanalogue sound and features in a modular, user configurable fashion (and small enugh to be rackable for easy transport), and at much affordable prices. For instance, a basic 24ch (16+4st) full speced line mixer with Cue, auxes, direct outs, talkback, foldback..etc, in a 6U rack with Total Recall for around $10k (no faders though), or less than $15k when 8bus routing, full metering and analog faders are added. This is doable 100%, with SSL quality.

Again maybe its just me but what are people expecting to do on an SSL with just 24 inputs? You can't even mix a basic 24 track production on one let alone a modern 48-96 track monster.

Also in your picture the desk is no-no for me.

I can hear the comb filtering from here already. Especially those ugly omnirax type things that are hollow. At least a real console weighs hundreds of pounds and doesn't move.

Originally Posted by jindrich

PS: WHAT is wrong with a Vespa? :)

What's wrong with a Vespa?

Try riding one around midtown Manhattan during rush hour.

You wanna talk about a death wish.

Trust me on a Mack truck no one will fu*k with you.

[jindrich]

the basic 6U 24 input version would cost around $10k. if they're not enough add a 2nd loaded XRACK with 24 more full inputs (cue, auxes, D/O etc per input) for $8k more. If you want some (resetable) EQ or Comps add another XRACK for $8k.... etc.

again, the idea is NOT to build a 4k/9k desk, but to offer a tracking/mixing device with SSL premium quality at affordable prices, destined to smaller studios, B rooms or even ICON rooms that want proper analog mixing.


I had 2 vespas which i loved, notwithstanding the fact that they didnt brake properly, were VERY slippy over zebras when the streets were slightly wet, and had some problems with the elestart.
but they were so cool.

[u b k]

Originally Posted by TonyBelmont

Where have you heard all of these "heavily modified" 9k's?

right track, and most recently i was out at music palace but now that i think about it i'm not sure that was a k. what i *do* remember is the custom $10,000 volume knob and that every piece of gear was on its own circuit breaker, with everything grounded to a 1' wide 100' long copper pole sunk deep into mama. the ssl was super clean, though, i give him that. i think he replaced or reworked most of the major pathways to get it that way.


gregoire
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[antonbuys]

Ok, I like the idea. And I think I know which market it's aimed at. Do you have any timeframe on it jindrich?

Your desk mock-up looks fine. I noticed it looks as if it also has a DAW control section added. That would make it really great! DAW control, Automation and mixing...

Love to hear more about the project.

Anton

[peeder]

I agree the ergonomics are poorly thought out...the fader pack should just be spaced to match the XRack, with the gaps on the right of each bank used for mice or master/bus faders or something.

I think it's cool to demonstrate ideas and proposals, although I agree the original post was very confusing in this regard. The first line could have been "we'd like to propose the following design concept to SSL" but I imagine the guy was quivering in anticipation of the rollout of this idea that they'd been working on for a year.

Probably better to just work on it for a day and then start soliciting feedback, before it's gotten so built up in your mind that you are invested in flawed ideas.

Oh and I totally agree btw, there's a reason consoles are big, just like real rooms are big. Analog sidecars are fairly cool as addons to a DAW control surface but it's a matter of time before you outgrow them and want the real thing. Most likely, just sticking with outboard for tracking and ITB for mixing is as good a hybrid approach as any.

[jho]

To me something all these consoles are lacking is the ability for automation to Pro Tools / other Daws.. So as long as we are talking about it at least plant the idea to give it AWS900 type automation to PT...

[ToneLux]

Originally Posted by jho

To me something all these consoles are lacking is the ability for automation to Pro Tools / other Daws.. So as long as we are talking about it at least plant the idea to give it AWS900 type automation to PT...

All these except Tonelux. We follow Pro Tools now, as does the 900.

Of course the next thing you will ask is:

If it just had meters
If it just had wood sides
If it just had...

Then you are back to a console.

[jho]

Originally Posted by ToneLux

All these except Tonelux. We follow Pro Tools now, as does the 900.

Of course the next thing you will ask is:

If it just had meters
If it just had wood sides
If it just had...

Then you are back to a console.

Actually I was going to ask if it would make me a nice Thai dish, clean the kitchen, give me a massage and a happy ending !

No but seriously - I didn't know you were doing that now.... I'll have to revisit the Tonelux website... I have to admit it's kind of hard to navigate the different models / options last time I was there. I'll go peruse again. I yearn for a Daw controller that gives me a lot of console / analog features that doesn't cost 50-90K.... Like an ATB with the PT control capability of a C24... I'd buy that right now.

Off to tonelux website again. I have to say the products are quite beautiful Paul !

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by u b k

right track, and most recently i was out at music palace but now that i think about it i'm not sure that was a k. what i *do* remember is the custom $10,000 volume knob and that every piece of gear was on its own circuit breaker, with everything grounded to a 1' wide 100' long copper pole sunk deep into mama. the ssl was super clean, though, i give him that. i think he replaced or reworked most of the major pathways to get it that way.

Music Palace is not a 9000... Michael owns a 4000G Plus which has been heavily modified...

Neither of the two 9000 consoles at Right Track (Times Square or A509 on the other end of town) have been modified.

If you liked the way those 9000's sounded, then you liked the 9000 sound.