Recording cello

[Rossco]

Any advice for recording a cellist in a small treated room? Have available a 2247LE, K2, NT2 and an RCA 77d (no pairs unfortunately). Style of music is pop ballad.
Thanks in advance.

[travisbrown]

If it's a feature cello that's going to be prominent in the mix, my favourite is AKG 451e CK1 about 12-15" off the middle of the soundboard of the cello, on-axis.

I noticed that's how they recorded John Hagen on Lyle Lovett's new disc. Not sure if it was a 451, but was a SD pencil condenser. Try a couple different mics and see what sounds good with that cello.

If it's to be blended in with other strings, I mic a bit lower and off-axis, pointing up at the cello. This seems to knock a bit of the high end out and it blends a bit better.

I think Ethan W. is a cello player. Maybe he will chime in.

[rwhitney]

I would use an LDC in the same place--about 1.5' from the finger board, or the middle right side (player's right) of the cello. I'll bet the 2247LE would sound great.

[Nu-tra]

Well I wrap an SDC that has an omni capsule in bubble wrap and put it under the bridge pointing straight up under the neck if I was to only use one mic. If it's a two mic set up I would use a sdc cardiod under the neck and point a large diaphragm at the bridge from about a foot away.

[Rossco]

Hi guys,

Thanks very much for your replies. I forgot to add that it will be mixed in with violins as part of a string section. The violinist will play all of the parts, after the cellist has laid down her track.

I also have a pair of CAD SDC's (not sure of the model no.), so will experiment with these as well as the LDC's. Many thanks guys. Cheers.

[river]

Any chance of moving out of the small, treated room? Strings fair better with more lively rooms and some air to work with. I've had good luck with an AT4050 about 18" away, on axis over where bow meets strings. Sorry that I'm not familiar with any of the mics you mentioned, but perhaps you can draw some comparison to the 4050.

[henryrobinett]

I think the 2247LE would be wonderful on cello. If it's to be in a section, stylistically, though recorded separatly, I'd put a little more distance, like about 3-5 feet. Let the sound develop, unless the small room really sucks.

[octatonic]

I've found cello to be highly room dependent so it is difficult to give any recommendation other than have a couple of LDC's, SDC's and maybe a couple of ribbons, set them all up and start auditioning.

I've had some luck with some unexpected mics (M201, various boundary mics, Beyer M160) as well.

One tip I was given early on was to avoid lumping cello in with bass instrument family.
It might look like a mini upright but tonally it is totally different esp to record.

[joelpatterson]

Cello says "ribbon" to me. A talking cello, I must be going off the deep end.

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by Nu-tra

Well I wrap an SDC that has an omni capsule in bubble wrap and put it under the bridge pointing straight up under the neck if I was to only use one mic.

man that would sound terrible, in my opinion and experience.

Originally Posted by Nu-tra

...If it's a two mic set up I would use a sdc cardiod under the neck and point a large diaphragm at the bridge from about a foot away.

the mics are way too close, in my opinion.

YMMV

[henryrobinett]

That would only work for me if you were recording it while playing and recording in a loud ensemble, -- you know drums, electric guitars banging away. Otherwise I'd agree. Way too close to get a good sound. That'd be for me anyway.

[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by octatonic

One tip I was given early on was to avoid lumping cello in with bass instrument family.
It might look like a mini upright but tonally it is totally different esp to record.

Good point. I treat strings sections sort of like I treat background vocals. This is why I wrote I position the mic a bit differently for blended strings - with harmony vocals I tend to roll off a bit of the top and find this works well for mixed strings.

I've seen Lyle Lovett perform with just him, his guitar, and a cello. The cello essentially took the place of a harmony vocal. This is what clued me in to stop treating it as a baritone or bass instrument. More of a low tenor.

Do your string players want to play with overdubs, or have you asked them about playing together? Like harmony vocalists, there's a lot to be said for visual cues and tuning when playing together. You can capture a nice blended sound if you have a good room.

[Cellotron]

If you are going for a natural accurate sound then cellos (and all bowed strings really) definitely fair better in larger, livelier rooms (wooden surfaces also seem to sound a lot better for these instead of concrete or carpet).

Best sounds I've heard from cello usually resulted primarily from a single "close" mic positioned (depending on the nature of the part, arrangement, mic and room) about 1 to 5 feet out at bridge level facing the cellist positioned just a little bit on the treble (A-string) side. Good mics for this that I've heard were either LDC's like Microtech Geffell MT71, Neumann U47FET, U87, maybe AT4047 on the budget side - or using SDC's like AT4051 (an under rated mic imo) or KM84. This then was blended to taste with room mics positioned farther out (with single figure8 or omni, or spaced cardioid or M/S pairs all giving good results depending on the desired sound).

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Cellotron]

Originally Posted by Nu-tra

Well I wrap an SDC that has an omni capsule in bubble wrap and put it under the bridge pointing straight up under the neck if I was to only use one mic. If it's a two mic set up I would use a sdc cardiod under the neck and point a large diaphragm at the bridge from about a foot away.

Originally Posted by mixerguy

man that would sound terrible, in my opinion and experience.
the mics are way too close, in my opinion.

YMMV

Got to agree with Mixerguy here. The technique Nutra points out might be good for live micing but no way would I want someone to mic my cello like that for a studio recording - you'd most likely get tons of bow noise, and bad weird resonances.

The most common mistake I see with people micing strings is that usually the mics are way too close. If you listen to strings in the room you'll realize that what our ear knows as the "nice" sound of them usually doesn't appear until you get some distance from the source.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Jeff16years]

I used a KSM 32 on this. I think it sounds good.

go to interactive sessions then click on the little movie film looking link.
-Jeff

Alisa Weilerstein | Home Page

[AB3]

Those gefells are great on cello. Made some great recordings with it. Have not tried my AEA R84 yet, but I would love to try it.

Originally Posted by Cellotron

Good mics for this that I've heard were either LDC's like Microtech Geffell MT71,
Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Nu-tra]

Yeah tell Bruce Swedien that.
That is where I learned that from.
I'm so mad now me and Blender are gonna sue all of you!

[sodium glow]

I would also try to find a larger more "live" space to record in even if it is not "acoustically treated". I have recorded quite a few cello's recently and my fav lately is a U67 about 18" - 24" back.

I have also used Earthworks, Shure KSM 44, Akg 414, Coles ribbon and I'm sure a few more but I really like LDC better than small ones on cello. I have also liked using figure 8 pattern in a bigger space.

[Energie]

I just recorded a cello in a fairly small treated room (the room sounds decent) and I used a 451 and 414 spaced apart to the left and right, the 414 a few feet back and a little up and the 451 slightly closer and slightly lower, and panned them out a bit, and I was quite happy with the sound overall. Added some reverb and it was quite nice at least to my feable ears.

[Cellotron]

Originally Posted by Jeff16years

I used a KSM 32 on this. I think it sounds good.

go to interactive sessions then click on the little movie film looking link.
-Jeff

Alisa Weilerstein | Home Page

Jeff - listening over my internet computer's speakers (Blue Sky EXO) your recording sounds awesome! The Kodaly sonata is one of my favorites - plus having such an excellent performer playing an excellent instrument doesn't hurt either - but great job on your part too.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Firefox]

Originally Posted by Rossco

Any advice for recording a cellist in a small treated room? Have available a 2247LE, K2, NT2 and an RCA 77d (no pairs unfortunately). Style of music is pop ballad.
Thanks in advance.

use the RCA 77

i think.

[IndieRockStudio]

try mid-side! i used that technique on the record i just finished. 451's sound stellar on cello.

[Ben B]

Originally Posted by Cellotron

Got to agree with Mixerguy here. The technique Nutra points out might be good for live micing but no way would I want someone to mic my cello like that for a studio recording - you'd most likely get tons of bow noise, and bad weird resonances.

The most common mistake I see with people micing strings is that usually the mics are way too close. If you listen to strings in the room you'll realize that what our ear knows as the "nice" sound of them usually doesn't appear until you get some distance from the source.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

Never tried this on cello, but a similar technique has been around for decades for recording acoustic bass. I used to do this frequently with a KM86 under the bridge, and it sounded suprisingly good (although I usually use more than one microphone when recording acoustic bass).

[Cellotron]

Originally Posted by Nu-tra

Yeah tell Bruce Swedien that.
That is where I learned that from.

But was this in the context of trying to get a natural sound for solo cello or of having the cello have to cut through over a pop track? I'm venturing to guess it's the latter.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Bob Ross]

some more ideas in this thread

414, U87, or TLM 170 for Chello

[Cellotron]

Originally Posted by Ben B

Never tried this on cello, but a similar technique has been around for decades for recording acoustic bass. I used to do this frequently with a KM86 under the bridge, and it sounded suprisingly good (although I usually use more than one microphone when recording acoustic bass).

I'm guessing that this was used for the bass to get a pizzicatto part to sound solid and cut through - and not for an arco sound though. For cello I think for most parts you'll want more distance.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Inner Light]

Originally Posted by Jeff16years

I used a KSM 32 on this. I think it sounds good.

go to interactive sessions then click on the little movie film looking link.
-Jeff

Alisa Weilerstein | Home Page

Wow, simply amazing !
great work. had the people at the office here (Classical Radio) Tripping!

[pkautzsch]

A cello is NOT a double bass. Not even a smaller version of a double bass.
It's a completely different beast, and it DOES need more distance.
The "mic-in-bridge" thing works well on a double bass where it gives us definition (string noise) and lots of low end (proximity effect!), plus a good signal/drum bleed ratio, as one often has to record a double bass simultaneously with a kit in the same room.
When using a cello, most people seem to want it to give a kind of "classical" aura to the song. That's why it needs to sound "classical", and that means DISTANCE and ROOM.
My go-to mics would be either Neumann 183 or Schoeps MK 21.

[sparklehorse617]

If you have to go with the mics you have, maybe the peluso at roughly bottom of fingerboard level, a few feet out like others have said, in cardiod if you're not keen on what the room is giving you.

[leadplayer]

Give the 77 a try. (The RCA 44 gets an amazing, big and warm
cello sound.) Set the screw on the bottom to V1 or V2 to reduce
the proximity effect, and place 5 ft high 30 degrees off axis.