recording piano with live jazz group

henryrobinett · 12th May 2004

I've been recording my band's live shows. This group plays fairly infrequently - once or twice every 4-6 weeks or so. We have one coming up this weekend. We always have an acoustic piano as one our our main instruments. It's a jazz group, so it doesn't reach the heights of rock volume but it's not soft dinner jazz either. The last two times I used 2 AT4050s in omni on the piano. I liked the sound. This time I'll use the AT4050s and augment them with a 3rd mic in the curve on some form. The FOH guy likes the Shure Beta91 and I think I'll just go with that.

Now to my question - The AT4050s pick up the entire drum kit and then some in omni. I can avoid the proximity effect this way but I'm not sure if I'm cutting my nose off to spite my face here. Since I'm playing I'm not going to have a lot of time to experiment. Any preferences or ideas between omni and cardiod or even HC in this situation? It's about a 9' grand. It may be just shy of that. Oh yeah, a pretty well known jazz pianist will be playing with us - Art Lande, so I want to do an especially good job.

The instrumentation is Piano, guitar (me), Tenor, Trumpet, Trombone, upright bass, Drums. I'm going to be using 17 tracks. I know, I know.

fifthcircle · 12th May 2004

Omnis are great in the studio, but I'd avoid them in a situation like this... The leakage (as you found out) can kill you. Leakage doesn't have to be bad, but it sure can be.

I use cardiod mics for jazz work, one at the high end and one towards the low end. Mics are usually positioned about 6"-8" out from the strings, perhaps 8"-1' back from the hammers angled so the null side of the cardiods are facing your loudest source- usually the drums.

My favorite mics to use for this are my Microtech M930s, but I'll also use 414's (EBs with CK-12 caps), U87s, Schoeps or Neumann KM 100... Just depends on the group and the sound needed.

-Ben

7rojo7 · 13th May 2004

Half stick, your 4050s in cardiod a foot back from the hammers in an ortf type of configuration, a stereo bar will help, or if you can find a mic like a C24 or 422 (2x414 capsules mounted over on another) or SM2, I have an ATM825 that works but it's 2SD capsules at + and - 45° from 0°, these would work the best because it gets tight in there at half stick, proximity effect can help the sound for jazz piano, in the studio I would use a blanket if there was a bleed problem, live it might be ugly. Another popular method is at half stick with one front address SD condenser in the armpit pointed at the hi section and another inthe middle of the lo section pointed with the same angle as the hi mic. This is good for live but since you recording you might want to use both, one for FOH and Monitor and the other for your recording. Method 1 gives a good L=lo and R=hi if you like that sort of thing, it can be narrowed and used as mono also, method 2 is fast to set up and gives a nice balance of the piano, it can be used in mono also if you're very careful with the mic placement. 2 omnis can get messy inside the lid, I usually use 2 omnis for solo piano at full stick 2 ft outside at normal height persons (5'10"?) ear level or with the lid off straight over the Piano. I also like at full stick 1 omni over the piano about 18", one of the best sounds I've ever heard. Also method 1 with 2 UM70s is really a classic take for jazz ensemble Piano, also with 451s 0r ant other "pencil" type mics for a little bite in the sound. You can try it in x/y also
You might want to try micing evrything as close to mono as possible and put up a stereo pair somewhere in front of the stage and later reallign all of the mono elements to this pair and drop back the volume on it to use it as ambience, it puts an amazingly realistic stage in front of you and gives you control at the same time. It doesn't have to be a prime pair as in the end it will be rolled back quite a bit, just a thought.
For method 2, 421s might surprise you, even for the recording.

Greg Heimbecker · 13th May 2004

Henry tell Art I said hi! I did 2 CDs with him last year. Cards are the way to go if it's live... I go mid way through the right hand, about where the brace goes through and down where the strings cross a couple feet back from the hammers, but check for nice mono summing. I've been using Microtech-Gefell UMT-70s.

Another trick is to turn the piano away from the drums so the lid is giving you some isolation.

henryrobinett · 16th May 2004

Greg - I'm sorry. I totally spaed on this post. Sure I'll tell him you said hi. I was confused. I hadn't realized I said Art Lande. I thought you were talking about another Art . . . forget it. What did you record with him? He's a great guy. Looking forward to the gig tomorrow night.

Thanks for the cardiods positioning tips. Will utilize them!

Greg Heimbecker · 16th May 2004

Henry , no problem. I recorded the Boy-Girl Band's CD "Drop Your Leotards" for which Art was the drummer mostly and a sextet for a Trombonist named Alex Heitlinger which I think is being titled "Greenlight" which Art played piano on and produced. Have a great time. Is Steve Roach the trumpeter on the gig?

henryrobinett · 16th May 2004

You just know everybody! Yeah Steve is playing on two tunes. I'll tell him you said "Hi". I have yet to do that.

12th May 2004	#1
henryrobinett Gear Guru Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 10,217 Thread Starter	recording piano with live jazz group I've been recording my band's live shows. This group plays fairly infrequently - once or twice every 4-6 weeks or so. We have one coming up this weekend. We always have an acoustic piano as one our our main instruments. It's a jazz group, so it doesn't reach the heights of rock volume but it's not soft dinner jazz either. The last two times I used 2 AT4050s in omni on the piano. I liked the sound. This time I'll use the AT4050s and augment them with a 3rd mic in the curve on some form. The FOH guy likes the Shure Beta91 and I think I'll just go with that. Now to my question - The AT4050s pick up the entire drum kit and then some in omni. I can avoid the proximity effect this way but I'm not sure if I'm cutting my nose off to spite my face here. Since I'm playing I'm not going to have a lot of time to experiment. Any preferences or ideas between omni and cardiod or even HC in this situation? It's about a 9' grand. It may be just shy of that. Oh yeah, a pretty well known jazz pianist will be playing with us - Art Lande, so I want to do an especially good job. The instrumentation is Piano, guitar (me), Tenor, Trumpet, Trombone, upright bass, Drums. I'm going to be using 17 tracks. I know, I know. __________________ All the best, Henry Robinett http://soundcloud.com/henry-robinett

12th May 2004	#2
fifthcircle Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,300	Omnis are great in the studio, but I'd avoid them in a situation like this... The leakage (as you found out) can kill you. Leakage doesn't have to be bad, but it sure can be. I use cardiod mics for jazz work, one at the high end and one towards the low end. Mics are usually positioned about 6"-8" out from the strings, perhaps 8"-1' back from the hammers angled so the null side of the cardiods are facing your loudest source- usually the drums. My favorite mics to use for this are my Microtech M930s, but I'll also use 414's (EBs with CK-12 caps), U87s, Schoeps or Neumann KM 100... Just depends on the group and the sound needed. -Ben __________________ Benjamin Maas Fifth Circle Audio Long Beach, CA http://www.fifthcircle.com

13th May 2004	#3
7rojo7 urumita Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Spoleto, Italy Posts: 2,370	Half stick, your 4050s in cardiod a foot back from the hammers in an ortf type of configuration, a stereo bar will help, or if you can find a mic like a C24 or 422 (2x414 capsules mounted over on another) or SM2, I have an ATM825 that works but it's 2SD capsules at + and - 45° from 0°, these would work the best because it gets tight in there at half stick, proximity effect can help the sound for jazz piano, in the studio I would use a blanket if there was a bleed problem, live it might be ugly. Another popular method is at half stick with one front address SD condenser in the armpit pointed at the hi section and another inthe middle of the lo section pointed with the same angle as the hi mic. This is good for live but since you recording you might want to use both, one for FOH and Monitor and the other for your recording. Method 1 gives a good L=lo and R=hi if you like that sort of thing, it can be narrowed and used as mono also, method 2 is fast to set up and gives a nice balance of the piano, it can be used in mono also if you're very careful with the mic placement. 2 omnis can get messy inside the lid, I usually use 2 omnis for solo piano at full stick 2 ft outside at normal height persons (5'10"?) ear level or with the lid off straight over the Piano. I also like at full stick 1 omni over the piano about 18", one of the best sounds I've ever heard. Also method 1 with 2 UM70s is really a classic take for jazz ensemble Piano, also with 451s 0r ant other "pencil" type mics for a little bite in the sound. You can try it in x/y also You might want to try micing evrything as close to mono as possible and put up a stereo pair somewhere in front of the stage and later reallign all of the mono elements to this pair and drop back the volume on it to use it as ambience, it puts an amazingly realistic stage in front of you and gives you control at the same time. It doesn't have to be a prime pair as in the end it will be rolled back quite a bit, just a thought. For method 2, 421s might surprise you, even for the recording. __________________ love and light

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13th May 2004	#4
Greg Heimbecker Gear addict Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: western edge of the big cornfield Posts: 402	Henry tell Art I said hi! I did 2 CDs with him last year. Cards are the way to go if it's live... I go mid way through the right hand, about where the brace goes through and down where the strings cross a couple feet back from the hammers, but check for nice mono summing. I've been using Microtech-Gefell UMT-70s. Another trick is to turn the piano away from the drums so the lid is giving you some isolation.

16th May 2004	#5
henryrobinett Gear Guru Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 10,217 Thread Starter	Greg - I'm sorry. I totally spaed on this post. Sure I'll tell him you said hi. I was confused. I hadn't realized I said Art Lande. I thought you were talking about another Art . . . forget it. What did you record with him? He's a great guy. Looking forward to the gig tomorrow night. Thanks for the cardiods positioning tips. Will utilize them!