Micing a big piano in a small space?

[jnorman]

I am going to be recording a solo piano CD in a couple weeks. the piano is a 7'4" bosendorfer grand owned by the pianist, and located in her smallish living room, which has lots of furniture and carpet floor. no apparent ambient reverb at all - quite dead.

the material is classical type arrangements of christmas songs. how would you guys mic this incredible sounding piano for this project? thanks.

[NathanEldred]

Without experimenting there in person...my first instinct would be cardioid X-Y over the soundboard (maybe about about 2 feet, but a little closer or further would be dictated by what you are trying to achieve), lid most likely open. Spaced pair in cardioid could sound cool and wide but there would most likely be a hole in the middle. Kill the early reflections, especially ABOVE the piano (on the ceiling) and parallel close walls. Natural ambience is cool, but I think the most important thing is to have a clean tight recording. I don't believe for one second that artificial ambience is never (or not often) added to even the most critical classically based solo piano recordings.

[kedbear]

for what it's worth, i wrote and recorded this at home in my living room a couple of weeks ago. This is a bechstein 6 ish foot grand. Lid up, ADK CE 1 1/2 foot above top strings near keys (but over strings), AT 4035 1 1/2 foot above bass strings at other end, so a spaced pair basically. Recorded through ULN-2, a touch of reverb added later, eq and compression on the mix. No damping/acoustic treatment in the room.

[joelpatterson]

I've mic'ed that very beast! Be prepared for a roaring and roof-rattling low end, although the highs always seem to be kind of "chinky" and chalky, well what do you expect when it only costs $160,000?

There's a whole lot of sound happening right there in the box, and I used what I always do, my default piano mic technique: two more-or-less matching tube LDC's right inches over the ribs of the harp-- the long one, down at the narrow end of the box, and the next-to-shortest one up near the hammers. And then a pair of Earthworks in ORTF configuration centered about the middle, halfway up to the open lid. (If there was Saran wrap stretched between the edge of the lid and the edge of the box, the Earthworks would just be poking it. Hey... that gives me an idea...)

I'm just as happy getting right in and close-micing a piano anyway, when mics are set too far away like "normal" it loses its immediacy and sounds wishy-washy and feeble, but maybe that's just me.

[grantlandau]

The 2-4k in a small space can be awful and make it "chalky"/honky if you don't balance an ORTF or x-y pattern closer to the bass strings at the edge of lid. I never like the sound in a small space where the mic pair are too symmetrical with the 'elbow' of the piano. I've favored putting them little farther towards the bass of the piano...but I do like the dark mellow sound..

really tight space..like tiiinnny crappy space, two 441's are pretty sweet right up on the sound board - just good luck maneuvering them with a boom stand and stereobar

[kissingonstilts]

My best experiences have been using a single LDC that you like the character of, and then moving it around the room while the pianist is playing (listening with headphones). I understand this is unorthodox, but I've found it effective. The room can impact the recording so much.

[alessio]

I've finished the take of a pretty famous classic piano player just yesterday and I want to share my experience...
We were in a theatre, inside the stage, with a steynway & sons. The firewall was down, and the curtain was close. Ceiling was 35 metres tall. stage 25 mtx 28mt. Used equipment: 2 schoeps cmc 5 cardioid, in coincident pair, AMS NEVE 1073 DPD that has been used like mic pre and converter, digital in Masterlink. The microphones 3,5 mt high and 6 meters away from the piano.
I had to take off the lid from the piano cause I had a bad balance on the bass, and I could'nt go further away with the mic boom cause I was picked traffic noise, bells of a church and airplanes. The goal was to make a shot with a very big natural reverb, so we didn't had to add it in mastering. BUT
1) I could not use more amb micro cause the place choosed by the artist was too noisy
2) Even in that huge space, with the mic 6 mt. far away, the piano result too dry, so I have to add reverb
3) Generally a classic piano player cannot decide what is a good workable sound and can opt for strange decision in order to achieve a sound that, he or her, is used to, that is not obtainable in a special environment like a living room.
4)The headphones (even the best) are not a good reference for decide if the sound is right. Try to take there your small monitors.
If I can advice you: Force the pianist to give you a reference CD with the sound that she wants to achieve, and explain her if it's possible to do in her living room. Use her reference sound sistem to compare with your sound, and avoid to put the mic too close to the piano so you don't get pedals noise, hammers noise and so on... Try to achieve a natural piano sound without too much room sound if the room does'nt sound well, so you can add a good reverb after.
Good luck
Alessio
www.spazisonori.com

[tone]

Very nice recording. Was the piano being played very lightly? What reverb did you use? As there is no bass in this piece do you think you could achieve equally good sounds on the low notes? How about if the piano was being played louder?

Sorry for so many questions but am thinking about classical work with a very nice small Steinway under similar circumstances.


Thanks for any info you can give.
R.

Originally Posted by kedbear

for what it's worth, i wrote and recorded this at home in my living room a couple of weeks ago. This is a bechstein 6 ish foot grand. Lid up, ADK CE 1 1/2 foot above top strings near keys (but over strings), AT 4035 1 1/2 foot above bass strings at other end, so a spaced pair basically. Recorded through ULN-2, a touch of reverb added later, eq and compression on the mix. No damping/acoustic treatment in the room.

[tone]

I'm using an old Steinway M. It sounds very beautiful but the action is a little worn and there is some noise from the hammer mechanism on a few of the bass notes. You can only hear it from the player's position but it would be picked up by a close mic. Can this type of sound be removed later with Sonic No-Noise or a similar program without too much degradation of tone quality? And if I position the mic so that the "deaf" side is facing the noise source would that possibly result in minimizing those noises sufficiently?

Thanks for any comments.

R.

Originally Posted by jnorman

I am going to be recording a solo piano CD in a couple weeks. the piano is a 7'4" bosendorfer grand owned by the pianist, and located in her smallish living room, which has lots of furniture and carpet floor. no apparent ambient reverb at all - quite dead.

the material is classical type arrangements of christmas songs. how would you guys mic this incredible sounding piano for this project? thanks.

[dementedchord]

big piano in a small room says close miced to me... remove the lid and XY or M/S it from above....

[kedbear]

Very nice recording. Was the piano being played very lightly? What reverb did you use? As there is no bass in this piece do you think you could achieve equally good sounds on the low notes? How about if the piano was being played louder?

Sorry for so many questions but am thinking about classical work with a very nice small Steinway under similar circumstances.


Thanks for any info you can give.
R.

Yeah it was kind of light untill the middle part, that is definitely louder. I'm only around the middle c region in the middle part so there isn't that much bass. I've recorded bass full tracks though and it sounded great to me but i'm an amateur. Also recorded louder stuff which sounded good. It was just the nature of the track that there was little bass, but i used the microphones in the same way.

I tried a technique where the lid is left up only about 8 cm. One mic is 2 inch above the strings on the left facing down the bass strings, so just in front and to the left of the pianist. The mic itslef is not under the lid, it is just in front with the diaphrahm facing under the lid. The other mic is positioned facing the bend of the piano. The diaphrahm is looking under the lid and pointed towards middle C, the mic is 30cm back from the piano. This produces a very reverberant and deep sound. Because the lid is lower the sound swirls around more which can sound fantastic. Would only work for piano on it's own though. This method is well worth trying, very different to having the lid up. Lots of experimentation really.


In terms of your hammer action noises, i'd have the piano tuned and ask whoever is doing it to check the causes. I had to do the same with my piano but the noises were fixed easily. I wouldn't recommend using plug ins to fix stuff like that, but then i haven't tried, i just imagine cutting out part of the frequency spectrum wouldn't be good on a piano.

[tone]

Thanks!!!

Originally Posted by kedbear

Yeah it was kind of light untill the middle part, that is definitely louder. I'm only around the middle c region in the middle part so there isn't that much bass. I've recorded bass full tracks though and it sounded great to me but i'm an amateur. Also recorded louder stuff which sounded good. It was just the nature of the track that there was little bass, but i used the microphones in the same way.

I tried a technique where the lid is left up only about 8 cm. One mic is 2 inch above the strings on the left facing down the bass strings, so just in front and to the left of the pianist. The mic itslef is not under the lid, it is just in front with the diaphrahm facing under the lid. The other mic is positioned facing the bend of the piano. The diaphrahm is looking under the lid and pointed towards middle C, the mic is 30cm back from the piano. This produces a very reverberant and deep sound. Because the lid is lower the sound swirls around more which can sound fantastic. Would only work for piano on it's own though. This method is well worth trying, very different to having the lid up. Lots of experimentation really.


In terms of your hammer action noises, i'd have the piano tuned and ask whoever is doing it to check the causes. I had to do the same with my piano but the noises were fixed easily. I wouldn't recommend using plug ins to fix stuff like that, but then i haven't tried, i just imagine cutting out part of the frequency spectrum wouldn't be good on a piano.