Jazz Trio + live gig = I need some advice...

[thenewyear]

OK remotesters,

I need a bit of advice... On Sunday I am recording a jazz trio, piano, upright bass, kit & female vocalist.

Its a live gig & the singer will be walking around so I'll have to take a feed from FOH for her.

For the rest I have the following to play with:-

414BXLS (matched pair)
C451 (matched pair)
KM183 (matched pair)
SM57
SM58
D112

These will be plugging into:-

1073DPD
Digi002R

I'll be taking a feed from the PA for vocals & I'll use one of the 451s as an audience/ambience mic. But as for the rest... well I don't have a strategy yet, this gig being a bit out of my usual experience.

Any tips especially regarding the bass & piano would be greatly appreciated.

[pkautzsch]

Why the 451s for audience? I'd rather use the KM183s there and have the 451s for piano or drums.

What I'd do with your mics:
KM183s: room/audience (get them UP HIGH!)
451s: piano rather close
414 in fig-8: bass (fig-8 with the null towards the drums will tame leakage)
414 in cardioid or wide cardioid: drums, somewhere near drummer's right ear
112 kick spot mic (put it in front of the drum, not inside - don't mix it too hot)
57 snare spot mic (not too close, don't mix it too hot either)
Board direct out feed for singer, or better split it before it hits the board.

[Jim vanBergen]

Pkautzsch gave you a great answer, so I'm going to give you alternates/options, because I love how we can all do things differently!

Here's v2:
One 451 directly over the kit as an OH, the other for snare & hat, and the 112 for kick.

Pair of KM183s in over the piano bridge, and 414 in cardioid unless you need the fig 8 for isolation from the drums. A 57 rubber-banded in the tailpiece also can be great if you want the matched pair of 414s for room ambiance, and I think the switchable patterns are ideal if you don't know how good or awful the room's acoustics may be.

Just my alternative $0.02.

[pkautzsch]

Good points in what JvB said. Especially the switchable-pattern room mic thing. I ought to try 183s inside a piano. Jim, doesn't this get us into serious bleed trouble? Closed lid then?

[thenewyear]

Hey both,

Thanks a ton for the advice so far.

remember that I have only 6 mic amps! 2 from the 1073 & 4 from the Digi. Normally my main pair runs through the 1073 & spots go via the Digi.

So how does this sound?

Blumlein 414s into 1073 at the best sounding point for the hall but as they are also open at the back they get the audience sound

Single 183 into Digi mic1 - near drummers right ear (a la pkautzsch)

57 into Digi mic 2- pointing up the bassists bridge (a la JvB's rubber band around the tail piece)

pair of 451s into Digi mics 3+4 - on the piano, mid & treble

The remaining four Digi line ins being feeds from the PA:-

vocals
bass drum
snare
???? (bass or piano depending on which I am least happy with with from my own mics)

Thoughts???

[thenewyear]

or better split it before it hits the board.

Unfortunately I don't have mic splits and as I so rarely do gigs with a PA one would be uneconomical for me.

Instead I've made up a custom wired 6 metre 8-way multicore with TRS jacks at one end and TS at the other. At the TRS end the tip is bridged to the ring which means I can use the cable to get direct outs from a row of inserts on a FOH desk.

Its not ideal for a couple of reasons
- you're relying on the sound guys gain staging
- you're effectively inserting 6m of unbalanced cable between the FOH mic amp and channel strip (! no one has complained so far...)

But having said that I've actually never had a problem with this cable the few times I've used it.

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by thenewyear

Hey both,

Thanks a ton for the advice so far.

remember that I have only 6 mic amps! 2 from the 1073 & 4 from the Digi. Normally my main pair runs through the 1073 & spots go via the Digi.

So how does this sound?

Blumlein 414s into 1073 at the best sounding point for the hall but as they are also open at the back they get the audience sound

Single 183 into Digi mic1 - near drummers right ear (a la pkautzsch)

57 into Digi mic 2- pointing up the bassists bridge (a la JvB's rubber band around the tail piece)

pair of 451s into Digi mics 3+4 - on the piano, mid & treble

The remaining four Digi line ins being feeds from the PA:-

vocals
bass drum
snare
???? (bass or piano depending on which I am least happy with with from my own mics)

Thoughts???

Sounds like a good plan to me. Main pair plus spots, basically.

[Remoteness]

I like these to options.

Furthermore, why not borrow or buy a single channel split box for the solo vocal.
IMO it's your best option.

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

Why the 451s for audience? I'd rather use the KM183s there and have the 451s for piano or drums.

What I'd do with your mics:
KM183s: room/audience (get them UP HIGH!)
451s: piano rather close
414 in fig-8: bass (fig-8 with the null towards the drums will tame leakage)
414 in cardioid or wide cardioid: drums, somewhere near drummer's right ear
112 kick spot mic (put it in front of the drum, not inside - don't mix it too hot)
57 snare spot mic (not too close, don't mix it too hot either)
Board direct out feed for singer, or better split it before it hits the board.

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

Pkautzsch gave you a great answer, so I'm going to give you alternates/options, because I love how we can all do things differently!

Here's v2:
One 451 directly over the kit as an OH, the other for snare & hat, and the 112 for kick.

Pair of KM183s in over the piano bridge, and 414 in cardioid unless you need the fig 8 for isolation from the drums. A 57 rubber-banded in the tailpiece also can be great if you want the matched pair of 414s for room ambiance, and I think the switchable patterns are ideal if you don't know how good or awful the room's acoustics may be.

Just my alternative $0.02.

[Jim vanBergen]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

Good points in what JvB said. Especially the switchable-pattern room mic thing. I ought to try 183s inside a piano. Jim, doesn't this get us into serious bleed trouble? Closed lid then?

I have done omnis close to the bridge with full stick as well as with lid removed and had excellent experiences if there are reduced or no stage monitors, or good baffling. Closed lid is fine but is a totally different tone, and most of my clients want open lid sound.

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

I have done omnis close to the bridge with full stick as well as with lid removed and had excellent experiences if there are reduced or no stage monitors, or good baffling. Closed lid is fine but is a totally different tone, and most of my clients want open lid sound.

I dig the "lid off the piano" thing!

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by ajfarber

I dig the "lid off the piano" thing!

Yeah baby > DMTV

[Lakeside]

The hardest instrument to capture is the piano. Try ORTF in the curve with your SDC. (Above the metal rim slightly inside the piano 40 cm up) I would use the Neve on piano as well. The kickdrum and the ambience mics are not that necessary if you only have 6 channels - Depends on the room and the monitor situation. Figure of 8 on bass sounds good. Can you borrow an extra condenser somewere? (The omnis could be used for drums I you are lucky and careful) Check DPA Microphones under "application guide" for inspiration. Good luck!

[thenewyear]

Thanks all round for the continued great ideas.

I like these to options.

Furthermore, why not borrow or buy a single channel split box for the solo vocal.
IMO it's your best option.

As ever with matters remote Steve you are bang on the money. Its too late to order up a single channel split in time for the gig but it is probably something I should have in the toolkit. I'll use this gig as the litmus test. If things aren't workable taking a feed from the inserts then a split will be my next purchase.

Try ORTF in the curve with your SDC.

I should have mentioned that the piano is upright! Does this invalidate all the previous advice. Anybody ever tried lid-closed on an upright??

[Remoteness]

Taking a feed from an insert can work well as long as the mic pre in the desk is as good as the ones you're using for the other mics.

Furthermore, you need to communicate with the FOH person to make sure they don't adjust the preamp during the live performance. It maybe okay for the live sound situation, but a real drag when going to post this material.

With a splitter you're always on your own!

Originally Posted by thenewyear

...As ever with matters remote Steve you are bang on the money. Its too late to order up a single channel split in time for the gig but it is probably something I should have in the toolkit. I'll use this gig as the litmus test. If things aren't workable taking a feed from the inserts then a split will be my next purchase...

[thenewyear]

Thanks one & all for the help. The gig went really smoothly. Brilliant FOH guy who knew his stuff and couldn't have been more helpful.

The only think I am unhappy with is the upright bass it's going to need some surgical EQ but other than that it's sounding great.

[Remoteness]

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