Monitors for mixing jazz?

[Jungle Jazz]

I've done a search, but I haven't found much discussion of monitor preferences for mixing jazz. I've recently moved into a new mixing room, and I'm reconsidering my monitors. I'm currently considering the Dynaudio BM5A or Adam A7, which both get a lot of love on other parts of GS, but I can't find much feedback from folks who use either model specifically for jazz. I've been mixing on NS-10s, which I find great for midrange details, but they don't have the best bass response, and they are hard on the ears. I also have some KRK V6 series II, which sound completely different than the NS-10s--more like bookshelf speakers--but they aren't quite giving me the detail that I'd like to hear.

Anyone have any experience mixing jazz on either the Dynaudio BM5A or the Adam A7s? I've been able to listen to the Dynaudios, but I haven't yet found a shop that has both the Adams and the Dynaudios set up side by side. Other options might include JBL LSR series or maybe some Tannoys. I'd like to keep the cost of the pair to $1000 or less, and I would consider passive monitors. These would be used for mixing only. Thanks.

[ajfarber]

I like passive monitors. Pro-Ac is good for jazz. So are B&W Matrix 801. At home I've got Kef "Coda" monitors that are powered with a McIntosh MC 2105. The Kefs aren't made anymore, but you can find them online.

Another cheap, but good, alternative are Tannoy PBM 6.5 monitors.

As far as powered monitors go, I prefer Meyer HD1 to Genelec. I haven't messed with others.

[Jungle Jazz]

I've been checking the local used market for Tannoys, but I haven't found any PBMs. I have, however, found some System 800 speakers. Know anything about them?

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by Jungle Jazz

I've been checking the local used market for Tannoys, but I haven't found any PBMs. I have, however, found some System 800 speakers. Know anything about them?

I don't know the System 800s.

I just bought another pair of Kef Codas on ebay. $75 incl shipping. I've been mixing jazz albums, TV commercials and Film cues with them.

[SurfingMusicMan]

Originally Posted by ajfarber

I like passive monitors.

Speaking out of ignorance here, what do you mean by preferring "passive monitors?" I understand the difference between passive and active monitors in that active monitors have their own included amp whereas passives don't. But since passive monitors still require an external amp, why would you prefer the sound of passive monitors?

I'm not calling you out or anything. I'm honestly just curious. Thanks.

[Jim vanBergen]

I have BM5's with Hafler amplification and they are accurate, full range monitors, easy to mix on. I have done two jazz mixes on them that translated very well IMO (not commercially released yet I am sorry to say!)

I like Tannoys, the System 800 is basically a powered (active) version of the System 8, which, using their dual concentric 8" driver, has almost no phase anomalies between high & low drivers. Very neutral, and under-rated.

I also like the A7s. I have only mixed classical recordings and one pop/rock project on them, but felt they translated well to the mix in other formats/systems. Sounds good!

All of your options are viable, solid performers. Choose the one you like most and go for it!

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by barthowk

Speaking out of ignorance here, what do you mean by preferring "passive monitors?" I understand the difference between passive and active monitors in that active monitors have their own included amp whereas passives don't. But since passive monitors still require an external amp, why would you prefer the sound of passive monitors?

I'm not calling you out or anything. I'm honestly just curious. Thanks.

I'm not answering for Andy, but I also prefer passive monitors (BM6 + Hafler Transnova).

For me, it was mostly a cost factor. My setup is significantly less expensive than the active BM6 model, and I can continue to add/upgrade speakers while still using the same great amp. Also, and this might just be superstition, I just don't think that putting active devices inside a vibrating box is a good idea.

To the OP: like Jim V. said, jazz is good on the Dyns.

[Jungle Jazz]

Thanks for the continued responses.

Jim, I think the the Tannoy System 800 were available in two versions, active and passive, as the ones available near me are the passive ones.

To add to the mix, I've also found a pair of lightly used Dynaudio BM6As, not the MK II, which are in my budget range.

I've also been refining the treatment of my mixing room. The biggest surprise was that my KRK V6s actually sound better without the Auralex Mopads that I was using. I get less apparent bass, but what is there is better defined now.

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by barthowk

Speaking out of ignorance here, what do you mean by preferring "passive monitors?" I understand the difference between passive and active monitors in that active monitors have their own included amp whereas passives don't. But since passive monitors still require an external amp, why would you prefer the sound of passive monitors?

I'm not calling you out or anything. I'm honestly just curious. Thanks.

You can chose your own amp with passives. You're not stuck with the built in amp. I guess it doesn't make much difference unless you've got a slutty high-end power amp.

Alot of classical guys still like the B&W 801. These require an amp. The Pro-Ac monitors are also popular with classical and jazz guys.

I would say that you can get a better bang for the buck with powered monitors if you haven't already got a smokin power amp.

[mal]

I use Genelec 1032A's with a sub...esp good for tracking..you'll know if there's any midrange issues..OK for mixing with the HF control reduced a little..I use small KRKs for nearfield..I find they translate really well..

the Genelec 1031s are good..a little smaller and tighter...I've used B&W 801's a lot though not recently...need a hefty power amp...heard the adam scm3A's recently and was very impressed

[audiothings]

Sorry, but I don't think that there are specific monitors for mixing jazz. And "jazz" itself is a very vague reference, given its extremes.

That said, I'm drooling over these NHT m-20s right now... they seem to have a flawless reputation. As also PMCs and ATCs. Most other monitors have fans and detractors, particularly Adams and Gennies which evoke the most robust responses, both ways.

As for me, I think theres no absolute reference... only preferances and comfort zones.

[Clueless]

Check this out: Adam s6a for the mains, s4a for surround: http://www.mtechmarketing.com/images...n_Center_1.jpg

I plan to do almost the same (except using s2.5a instead of s4a).

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by Clueless

Check this out: Adam s6a for the mains, s4a for surround: http://www.mtechmarketing.com/images...n_Center_1.jpg

I plan to do almost the same (except using s2.5a instead of s4a).

Don't be misled. The studio at Jazz @ Lincoln Center is run by XM radio. Almost no jazz is recorded in their studio. Wynton likes Legacy studios best. Besides, the studio at J@LC is too expensive. If you want to rent the studio, you need to get the room from J@LC and you need to get the control room from XM radio. You also need a union stage hand from local 1 to set up chairs, music stands, drum sets and mic stands.

BTW, the mic list is limited, there is no outboard gear and you have only one or two kinds of mic pres.

[Jungle Jazz]

So far, I've been able to audition the Tannoy System 800 (passives) and the Dynaudio BM5A and BM6A. The Tannoys sound very nice, perhaps even too nice to mix on. I found their imaging very wide. It was a little disorienting at first, as the stereo field seemed exaggerated. I enjoyed listening to them, and they didn't seem fatiguing in any way, but the bass might not be as full as I'd like from a speaker.

The BM5A and BM6A definitely have a similar family sound: clear top to bottom, well defined and localized image, and they don't seem to hype any particular frequencies. I can see adjusting to either, but I think the BM6A has a better low end response. The mixes that I tested on them sounded like what I want my mixes to sound like.

So far, my favorites are the BM6As, which I might just go ahead and get since I found a used pair in very good condition ata reasonable price.

I'm curious about the ProAcs (I'm assuming the Studio 100 is the model to get), but they are a bit beyond my price range, and I can't find any to audition. Also, I'm not sure if I want to deal with a separate power amp or not. I'm trying to work as lean as possible. I'd like to test the Adams as well, but I can't find any NHTs to audition.

Thanks again to all who have contributed their thoughts.

[kingneeraj]

+1 for Pro Ac 100's!! i love mine!

[vandertone]

+2 for ProAc100

[Legacy]

Hi Jungle Jazz,

Good advice so far. I also like the Tannoy PBM series. The 6.5s are a bit small but natural when driven by a decent amp. I believe there is a pair of PBM6.5s on *Bay now:

Tannoy PBM 6.5 Studio Monitors - (eBay item 220163498448 end time Nov-02-07 00:17:47 PDT)

The PBM 8s are better and show up reasonably often as well.

ProAc 100s are nice - also natural if maybe a bit pretty to my ears - but good tools.

Also out of your price range but the Lipinski L505s have been blowing my mind. Really great combination of natural tonal presentation and tons of detail.


-Silas

[Flora]

another fan of the proac 100 here!

[Lakeside]

I have a pair of BM6A's that I have used for everything the last 7 years (bought them used). They are very pleasing for the ears especially on long sessions. They sound very good. I think they are one of the best Dynaudio models made.

[resound]

I do mostly classical but some jazz. I have been very satisfied with my BM6As and am convinced I would need to spend significantly more than this pair cost me to get any significant improvement.

FWIW, my favorite thing about these monitors is the very rich, detailed, and deep sound stage they create: great imaging. I have heard better, but at $6k a pair, not $1,500.

[Jungle Jazz]

Well, I went ahead and got the BM6As. You guys were right about the imaging details. From preliminary listening, I can hear better differentiation right to left and spatially; live recordings especially seem to take on greater depth, and I can hear reverb tails much cleaner now. I still need to tweak either my room or the speaker settings themselves to get truer bass happening my mixing room. I was set up to use speakers that were front ported, but since these Dyns are rear ported, I might have to rethink positioning/room treatment. Anyone have any tips? Thanks again to all who chimed in and helped me reach a decision.

[barefoot]

Originally Posted by Jungle Jazz

I was set up to use speakers that were front ported, but since these Dyns are rear ported, I might have to rethink positioning/room treatment. Anyone have any tips?

Ports are typically omni-directional, so it should not make much difference simply with respect to the way the port is facing. However, if the rear port winds up being positioned very close to the front wall, you can get some significant bass lift as well as exacerbating any room mode issues you might have. If possible, it's almost always a good idea to move the speakers further out from the wall. A good starting point is to position the rear of new speakers as far away from the wall as the front of the old speakers were.

Thomas

[Jungle Jazz]

Hi Thomas,

Thanks for the suggestions. I've been experimenting with my room and found that, indeed, getting the speakers farther away from the wall is helping. Also, I've put absorbtion rather than diffusion behind me (in mix position) and that seems to be helping tighten things up all around.

I must admit that I'm curious about your monitors and wish I could have auditioned some, especially since I'm in the Bay Area. Sadly, I'm afraid they're more than a bit beyond my budget, but I've heard a lot of good things about them.

[barefoot]

Originally Posted by Jungle Jazz

I've been experimenting with my room and found that, indeed, getting the speakers farther away from the wall is helping. Also, I've put absorbtion rather than diffusion behind me (in mix position) and that seems to be helping tighten things up all around.

Cool. Yeah, the absorption on the front wall also helps with comb filter effects from early reflection that can cloud the upper bass and lower midrange. I've also found that rigid fiberglass absorbers with a small air gap behind them seem to be more effective in the lower frequencies than their specs indicate, if the speaker is in close proximity. I think the higher air velocities associated with the speaker being nearby helps with low frequency efficiency.

Originally Posted by Jungle Jazz

I must admit that I'm curious about your monitors and wish I could have auditioned some, especially since I'm in the Bay Area. Sadly, I'm afraid they're more than a bit beyond my budget, but I've heard a lot of good things about them.

Well, you're still welcome to stop by and hear them, even for curiosity's sake.

Thomas

[leddy]

Originally Posted by ajfarber

I just bought another pair of Kef Codas on ebay. $75 incl shipping. I've been mixing jazz albums, TV commercials and Film cues with them.

I just bought a pair on your enthusiasm, and the specs. $100 on Ebay, supposedly like-new. Looking forward to hearing them. I've been wanting something front-ported. They look great; +/- 3db down to about 45 hz. Pretty good for that size / cost.

[Jungle Jazz]

Originally Posted by barefoot

Well, you're still welcome to stop by and hear them, even for curiosity's sake.

Thomas

Thanks for the invitation. I'll try to take you up on it when I have some free time. Cheers.

[Tom Hakala]

How about Genelec 8040's?

I haven't mixed any jazz sessions myself... yet... but I would like to try it out with 8040's. At least jazzy music sounds very good through them, well that's, of course a whole different thing. I would like to know if there's someone who is using a pair of 80xx series for mixing jazz.

[edwinhurwitz]

Originally Posted by leddy

I just bought a pair on your enthusiasm, and the specs. $100 on Ebay, supposedly like-new. Looking forward to hearing them. I've been wanting something front-ported. They look great; +/- 3db down to about 45 hz. Pretty good for that size / cost.

I was going to go after them myself, given that they were in Denver and I'm in Boulder, I could have saved shipping, but I wasn't ready to go to $100. I'm glad they went to a good home!

I was using Dynaudio BM5as and like them pretty well, but they never sounded quite right in my room, with its low ceilings. I managed to get a pair of Event ASP8s almost half off and discovered that they worked much better in my room. I think that being front ported, they somehow interface with my room much better. Mids and lows translate much better.


I have since added bass traps and some first reflection treatment and it's sounding much better, so maybe the BM5as would be fine at this point, but I couldn't afford to keep both. I have mixed some jazz and acoustic music on the ASP8s and they seem to translate very well. I had never been an Event fan before these speakers.

Edwin

[leddy]

Originally Posted by edwinhurwitz

I was going to go after them myself, given that they were in Denver and I'm in Boulder, I could have saved shipping, but I wasn't ready to go to $100. I'm glad they went to a good home!

Thanks. These could pass for brand new. I'm digging the sound. I have Alesis M1 passives and Wharfedale 8.1's. They have much more mid-bass than the Alesis. The Wharfedales had better mid bass than the Alesis but were muddy and lacked high end detail. The KEF's seem to be the best of both worlds. Nice midrange, decent enough bass, and the highs seem perfect. A nice addition.

A great use of $100. Thanks to Andy.

[herrhafen]

Originally Posted by Jungle Jazz

I I'm currently considering the Dynaudio BM5A or Adam A7
...I'd like to keep the cost of the pair to $1000 or less, and I would consider passive monitors. These would be used for mixing only. Thanks.

Well, actually I have compared Adam A7, and ANF10, and I prefer by far the sound of the passive version. Cheaper, and they give you the possibility of get a good amplifier.

On the other hand, I also liked very much the Roland DS7, and I never read about them. Maybe, those, or even the DS8 are also a good option.