huge cathedral micing technique

[willi1203]

hi
I'm going to record a very famous chamber orchestra + choir in a huge cathedral. I mainly recorded since yet chamber music, so I'm a bit confused...
I read many posts about micing technique for oratorios... with 8 inputs = 1 ortf, 1 spaced omni pair, 2 voice solos, 1 bass, 1 continuo... Do you use omni flanks as well in big reverberant spaces ?? What the distance between the 2 omnis ?

I own : 1 pair cardio (cmc5 mk4) schoeps ; 1 pair subcardio (cmc6 mk21) schoeps ; 1 pair omni (cmc6 mk2s) schoeps ; 1 pair oktava 319 (cardio)modified ; I can rent a pair of neumann km 84 cardio.. I use pretty good pre (forssell 2 ch ; dav bg1 2 ch ; audient asp 008) and mytek converters. I record on pro tools (adat in+ spdif in) + backup on fostex d90 (adat in too ; i have a adat "splitter").

What would you do with that stuff ? I can record 10 ch.(8 very important+2 "extras") in the mac and 8 very important in the fostex.
thank you very much
william

[willi1203]

I thought (!!) since yesterday. Do you think it's really necessary to set up omni flanks in a huge cathedral ? I'm scarry about picking too much reverb.

For the bach's magnificat recording I'm planing to use (cos of the reverb): ORTF schoeps cardio main pair, mk21 large ortf pair on the choir, (omni mk2s flanks ?), neumann km 84 cardio (renting) left and right of the conductor to pick up soloists singers. Do you think I'll need more spot mics ? (continuo, woodwinds ?)

30 persons choir, chamber orchestra (12 violins, 4 violas, celli ?, 2 (!!) double-bass, tympani). It's a very famous chamber orchestra here, I can't miss it !

thanks

[ghellquist]

Hello Willi. I wish I could give you good answers, but I find it very difficult. It all depends on the exact properties of the room. Some of them sound lovely and there quite a bit of room only adds to the experience. In other rooms I find that the ambience sounds bad and I wish for it to go away.

My approach to an important recording would be to go there as early as possible, preferrably many hours before the dress rehearsal. With one plan in mind I would set up the main mics but and the spot mics. I always keep at least one spot mic for later positioning. This gives time to make a tidy setup and also a short period off for lunch. I would allow quite a bit of flexibility for the main mics, up/down, back/forward, searching for the sweet spot during the rehearsal.

During rehearsals I focus on getting the best possible sound out of the main mics. I might even try different setups: Ortf, omnis and so on. This requires me to be able to listen with good quality. Best of course, in a distant room but often it means headphones. Once the main pair mics are up, what spot mics to add becomes rather self evident. Of course on important soloists, sometimes on single instruments or groups. The problem with spot mics in my mind is that once you start adding them, you tend to want them on just about every instrument.

For main mics I like to work with a main pair + omni outriggers. The outriggers are mixed in quite a few dB-s down from the main pair. They still increase the width of the sound and can also add a bit more sound from the outer reaches of the orchestra. This helps in a reverbant space as the main mics often end up a little too close to really catch the full performance in order to not get too much ambience. ORTF as an example ideally should be placed to have the full performance within about 90 degrees as seen from the mics. This often ends up a bit too far in a very reverbant space.

Regardless of everything else, a well placed main pair will catch most of the performance. After all acoustic music is balanced by the musicians to sound good on location.

Gunnar

[fifthcircle]

I absolutely do keep the omnis up in the live rooms, but positioning is everything. You'll find it easier to use directional mics, but the reward of omnis positioned closer is absolutely worth it.

Think of acoustic sound fields- near, mid and far field when setting mics. The pattern of the mic and the ambience of the room will dictate where these different fields kick in. In a large reverberant space, the near filed will be almost non-existant, the mid up close and everything else far field. Try to keep your omnis mid field- just means they'll be closer to the source.

In a large reflective room like that, I'd go with a relatively large setup to maintain the control needed. Main pair with flanks. Main pair being relatively directional (ie MK4), flanks being positioned up against the edge of the orchestra (MK2). Spots on vocal soloists (KM84), harpsichord (single KM84) and choir (MK21). Woodwinds will likely project just fine. That brings you to your 8 channels.

--Ben

[willi1203]

thanks men !

I'll try to do the best... unfortunately, I'll have very few time of rehearsal to define best sounding mics position...

[pkautzsch]

Magnificat in a large cathedral could benefit a lot of a cardioid main pair, as it's got so many details you need to capture which can easily be drowned in reverb. But still you *will* like to have a pair of omnis somewhere, to get that natural bass response and open-ness of sound. What I've found to work quite well if I want this, though it's not the most conventional approach, is to use omnis not *in front of* the ensemble, but *right above* them. You might place them somewhere in the woods and above the trumpets. Need to carefully place them for the desired choir/orchestra balance!
My approach for the Magnificat, however, would still be an omni main pair with "eyeballs" to give some more focus (basically the plexiglass ball thing of the M50) plus a few well-considered "spots" for, say, choir, soloists, continuo, timpani, double bass.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by willi1203

hi
I'm going to record a very famous chamber orchestra + choir in a huge cathedral. I mainly recorded since yet chamber music, so I'm a bit confused...
I read many posts about micing technique for oratorios... with 8 inputs = 1 ortf, 1 spaced omni pair, 2 voice solos, 1 bass, 1 continuo... Do you use omni flanks as well in big reverberant spaces ?? What the distance between the 2 omnis ?

I own : 1 pair cardio (cmc5 mk4) schoeps ; 1 pair subcardio (cmc6 mk21) schoeps ; 1 pair omni (cmc6 mk2s) schoeps ; 1 pair oktava 319 (cardio)modified ; I can rent a pair of neumann km 84 cardio.. I use pretty good pre (forssell 2 ch ; dav bg1 2 ch ; audient asp 008) and mytek converters. I record on pro tools (adat in+ spdif in) + backup on fostex d90 (adat in too ; i have a adat "splitter").

What would you do with that stuff ? I can record 10 ch.(8 very important+2 "extras") in the mac and 8 very important in the fostex.
thank you very much
william

Just a couple of quick thoughts. I would try and give yourself as many post production options as possible. As a more general observation, reverberation is a relative thing, I've been in very reverberant spaces where the recorded sound is quite dry. What I mean by that is that reverberation is relative to the size of the venue, i.e. a very large reverberant building can sound quite dry on the mic's (depending of course on positioning), where as a small venue with what sounds like relatively little ambience can prove overly reverberant. Couple to this the factors of the work being recorded, the size of the ensemble, etc these all factor different things into the equation. One thing to bear in mind is not too "fight" the space. Often a recording with a slightly larger "ambience" that realistically reflects the performance enviroment will be a better compromise than a so so atempt at unrealistic control. IMHO this is where the experienced sound engineer earns his fee.

Regards


Roland