recording a jazz sextet?

[davy]

I like to have some advise on recording an acoustic jazz-sextet. These are the instruments involved: trumpet, altsax, tenorsax, piano, double bass and drums.
The band will performe live (no headphones) so they will make their balance acousticaly. The room where the recording will take place is not yet decided.

Placement of the instruments: piano: left; bass: center; drums: right. In the front: (L to R) altsax, trumpet, tenorsax.

This is the setup I was thinking about:
- main stereo pair: Neumann km183 (+sbk??) AB spacing ??
- piano: Neumann km184
- double bass: Neumann M147
- drums - kick: km184, ride: km184, snare+HH: km184
- altsax: AKG C414-LTD (hyper cardioid)
- turmpet: Royer R121
- tenorsax: Royer R121

Please give me your opinion on this setup and/or other things where I have to look out for during recording.

Thanks,
Davy Rogiest

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by davy

I like to have some advise on recording an acoustic jazz-sextet. These are the instruments involved: trumpet, altsax, tenorsax, piano, double bass and drums.
The band will performe live (no headphones) so they will make their balance acousticaly. The room where the recording will take place is not yet decided.

Placement of the instruments: piano: left; bass: center; drums: right. In the front: (L to R) altsax, trumpet, tenorsax.

This is the setup I was thinking about:
- main stereo pair: Neumann km183 (+sbk??) AB spacing ??
- piano: Neumann km184
- double bass: Neumann M147
- drums - kick: km184, ride: km184, snare+HH: km184
- altsax: AKG C414-LTD (hyper cardioid)
- turmpet: Royer R121
- tenorsax: Royer R121

Please give me your opinion on this setup and/or other things where I have to look out for during recording.

Thanks,
Davy Rogiest

Okay, this is what I would do.

Don't bother with a main stereo pair.

Bass-use a km184
tenor- M147
alto-royer
trumpet-royer
piano-km184 just one will be fine, or pair over hammers. Avoid panning them L+R, it will sound too much like pop music.

Drums, 1 mic (your choice) for the entire set and 1 km184 for the snare/hh combo.

You won't need a bassdrum mic.

Pan the instruments as the appear on stage.

[fifthcircle]

Heh... What Andy said.

I was going to say almost the exact same thing. Depending on the style, I'm a fan of stereo piano and stereo drums, but certainly not panned full spectrum. I usually go from Left to a bit past center for the piano and from right to a bit past center for the drums. I also usually will put a single stereo pair in front of the kit. If things are positioned right, you won't need a snare mic or anything else on the kit.

For the piano, I'd look at either a pair of 184's or perhaps even a pair of 183's. Really depends on the room, instrument and lid position. If you can get a gobo between the drums and piano, you'll help your sound as you'll be able to keep the lid all the way open.

The 184 is a great bass mic, you'll be fine there. Find the threads on bass micing here - placing the mic under the bridge will get you a great sound.

The 184's will also work pretty well on drums. I'd go X-Y with them about 2-3 feet out "looking" under the cymbals at the snare.

Royers and the 147 for saxes and trumpet will be great. Pan the horns a bit as you see them.

You're in fine shape...

--Ben

[davy]

Originally Posted by ajfarber

Okay, this is what I would do.

Don't bother with a main stereo pair.

I am new to jazz recording (and this forum), so sorry the ask:
As I understand, it is a different aproach compared to classical music where you have a main pair and add accent microphones.

Can you give me a bit more info why not using a main stereo pair?

Thanks for your support.
Davy

[fifthcircle]

I find that a stereo pair just doesn't end up buying much in jazz recordings. It dilutes the image and more often than not makes you loose the impact of your sound. You aren't getting as much of a natural ballanced ensemble sound, but then again, you aren't really getting that in the room anyways.

For room mics to work well, you need an ensemble that balances perfectly and it needs to be in a great room. Otherwise, you are just harming your sound.

In a classical situation, it is all about the "ensemble." You are going to loose that feel if you have too many mics out...

Just a few thoughs.

--Ben

[davy]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

I also usually will put a single stereo pair in front of the kit. If things are positioned right, you won't need a snare mic or anything else on the kit.

The 184's will also work pretty well on drums. I'd go X-Y with them about 2-3 feet out "looking" under the cymbals at the snare.

Hi Ben,

Can you explain a bit more how to place the X-Y setup (sorry, I'm a bit confused and used to record drums for pop/rock)

Thanks already for your help!

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

Heh... What Andy said.

I was going to say almost the exact same thing. Depending on the style, I'm a fan of stereo piano and stereo drums, but certainly not panned full spectrum. --Ben

If you record drums and piano in stereo, try it from the audience perspective.

You get stereo anyway, because the piano and drums will leak into the other mics. This also contributes to what I call "depth imaging". That is to say front and back, not just left to right. If the drums are recorded in a booth with 4,5 or more mics, there is too much presence and no depth. But if everyone is set up on stage, the drums will leak into the other mics (which are now acting as room mics) and give the drums depth.

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

I find that a stereo pair just doesn't end up buying much in jazz recordings. It dilutes the image and more often than not makes you loose the impact of your sound. You aren't getting as much of a natural ballanced ensemble sound, but then again, you aren't really getting that in the room anyways.


--Ben

100% spot on Ben!

Jazz should not be recorded like classical music. It almost never works out well.

Jazz should sound AS IF it were recorded like classical music. It's up to you, the engineer, to create that illusion.

I say this often; listen to recordings from the golden age of stereo jazz records. Columbia, Riverside, Verve, Impulse, Prestige, Blue Note, Argo, RCA, Mercury, Command, Jazzland, Pacific Jazz, Contemporary, Capitol and Reprise.

[leddy]

I'm an amateur, but I really am trying to get good at recording live jazz.

I run into a problem with using spot mics only. I like to place the bass in the middle, drums left, piano right. The drums bleed in higher proportion than the piano, so I have a hard time balancing things. The drums appear more toward the center near the bass while the piano comes from the far right side.

I'm mixing a live quartet recording I just did. I put up a main pair and single spot mics. The spot mics may have been a touch close, but I'm finding that using just a bit of the main pair is really adding the balance and realism I'm looking for. I find this to be the case when I use an M/S pair (and using a little more side than usual). With other stereo techniques, it does not work as well.

Still not really hitting the mark I'm shooting for, but things are improving.

[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by davy

Hi Ben,

Can you explain a bit more how to place the X-Y setup (sorry, I'm a bit confused and used to record drums for pop/rock)

Thanks already for your help!

This is using a stereo mic (a Royer SF-24 in this case), but see this photo in this post for what I'm talking about...

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/968548-post19.html

--Ben

[davy]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

This is using a stereo mic (a Royer SF-24 in this case), but see this photo in this post for what I'm talking about...

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/968548-post19.html

--Ben

Ok Ben, now I understand your "X-Y in-front-drums approach".
A picture says more than thousand words .

I also had a look (and listen) on your website, great samples!!

Greets,
Davy

[JP66]

maybe I'm crazy but I actually like usign a stereo pair as my main source for jazz groups, I just use spot mics to fill in the gaps. Of course I have different goals than most professionals.

[davy]

With the response I received from the helpfull gearslutz,
this is the setup that I would like to make in practice:

* no stereo main pair
* PIANO: placed with the open lid away from musicians to achieve more separation. Microphones KM183 in AB setup. I think that I will need to roll off the top end because the km183 are diffuse field omnis.
* BASS: a km184 placed in the bridge between the strings and the top plate, towards the end of the fretboard and mount it in a big piece of foam in the bridge. (info from DPA website).
* DRUMS: XY setup with km184's in front of the drums and a single km184 for the snare/hh combo.
* ALTO SAX: R121
* TRUMPET: R121
* TENOR SAX: M147
* instrument panning as they appear on stage
* stereo mics (piano, drums) panning half - half

I would like to thank everyone for their support.
When the recordings are finished, I will post some samples.

Greets,
Davy

[MBishopSFX]

A mic wrapped in foam in the bridge of the bass can kill the instrument's sound. Yes, it's a convenient spot, but the foam deadens the critical transfer of vibration of strings to the body of the instrument. Lightly touch the bridge with your finger while the bass is played and you'll hear a dramatic difference in tone.

I tried to do just what you describe on Ray Brown's bass once years ago. He said, "You touch my bridge, I'll tear your arm off" (with a grin of course, but he meant it!).

Use a stand w/boom.

[davy]

Originally Posted by MBishopSFX

I tried to do just what you describe on Ray Brown's bass once years ago. He said, "You touch my bridge, I'll tear your arm off" (with a grin of course, but he meant it!).

Use a stand w/boom.

I will use a stand w/boom to save the sound of the bass (and my arms).

Thanks for your advise Michael!

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by MBishopSFX

A mic wrapped in foam in the bridge of the bass can kill the instrument's sound. Yes, it's a convenient spot, but the foam deadens the critical transfer of vibration of strings to the body of the instrument. Lightly touch the bridge with your finger while the bass is played and you'll hear a dramatic difference in tone.

I tried to do just what you describe on Ray Brown's bass once years ago. He said, "You touch my bridge, I'll tear your arm off" (with a grin of course, but he meant it!).

Use a stand w/boom.

Ah yes, we've heard that from a number of double bassists.

Along with a mic stand with boom we also have suspended a mic from the bridge with rubber bands when applicable. This arrangement has worked well for us and the musicians don't seem to mind the suspended bridge mic.

[ajfarber]

Some bass players don't mind the mic in the bridge thing, and others do. I think you get better results with the mic on a stand. You can pick up more finger noise, which is cool, and you get more colour especially if the bass player is using gut strings. If you use a mic with good off-axis rejection, it's okay to have the bass next to the drums without isolation. This can be a problem with some bassists that have low action and normally use an amp. Not to much of an issue with louder players.

Bass mics I like:

AKG d12e
Beyer M88
Neuman km84/54/56 or other sdc like a Schoeps or something. An AKG 451 will do.
EV re 20
Sennheiser 441U

[Remoteness]

Interesting...

I pretty much used every mic you listed except the D12E.
Where do you like placing that mic? And, what do you combo that mic with?

Cheers!

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Interesting...

I pretty much used every mic you listed except the D12E.
Where do you like placing that mic? And, what do you combo that mic with?

Cheers!

The D12e is good on bass because of it's off-axis rejection. I put it on a small stand just below the "F-hole" on the G-string side of the bass. I don't combo that with other mic's and I never use a DI.

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by davy

I am new to jazz recording (and this forum), so sorry the ask:
As I understand, it is a different aproach compared to classical music where you have a main pair and add accent microphones.

Can you give me a bit more info why not using a main stereo pair?

Thanks for your support.
Davy

I avoid stereo pair main mics because of time differential between the drum oh and the room mic. I have found that the rhythm section looses its crispness when you've got ride cymbal close mic'ed and in the main pair. The main pair picks up that cymbal attack a nano-second after the drum oh.

I think that the leakage into all the other mics is enough to capture the room ambience.

[leddy]

For guys like Andy that prefer no stereo pair, could you give a little detail on your spot mic'ing techniques? SDC's I assume? Single mics on each instrument? Omni or Cardiod, etc.? What do you use and where do you put it to get the right balance between the room, the bleed, and the detail of the instruments?

Thanks.

Remoteness: How about your "Latin Side of Miles" gig. How much of that was spot mics, vs room mics or a main pair? I still can't get over how nice that sounds.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by ajfarber

The D12e is good on bass because of it's off-axis rejection. I put it on a small stand just below the "F-hole" on the G-string side of the bass. I don't combo that with other mic's and I never use a DI.

I must try that on the next live double bass session for sure -- Thanks much!

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by leddy

For guys like Andy that prefer no stereo pair, could you give a little detail on your spot mic'ing techniques? SDC's I assume? Single mics on each instrument? Omni or Cardiod, etc.? What do you use and where do you put it to get the right balance between the room, the bleed, and the detail of the instruments?

Thanks.

Remoteness: How about your "Latin Side of Miles" gig. How much of that was spot mics, vs room mics or a main pair? I still can't get over how nice that sounds.

Thanks so much Leddy!

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/work-...les-davis.html

This recording was captured almost completely with spot mics except for the three audience/room mics.

Good microphone placement was our key to success. If I wasn’t happy with a particular sound, my associates would move the mic(s) around until I was happy with the results. In some respects it’s like EQing, instead of twisting a knob, we’re moving the mics around until it’s pleasant to the ears.

On the double bass we started with a MD409 hanging over the amp, an SM98 surrounded with foam in the f hole, a KM140 and a B&K on stands. We ended up with a MD441 on a stand, the SM98 in the f hole, a KM140 in the bridge suspended with rubber bands.

The rest of the mic input list follows:

Acoustic Piano had two C414TLIIs.

Both Flutes had a KM140 on them.

Overhead percussion had two R121s.

Percussion Toys had a KM140 (a MD441 was used on the first night).

Trombone had an M149.

Trumpet had a TLM170.

Clarinet had a TLM103.

Alto Sax had an M149.

Baritone Sax had a U87.

Foot had an M88 just outside the hole in the skin.

Snare had a TLM103 about 6 inches from the drum.

Drum Overheads had two M160 pointed straight down over the kit.

I used a TLM103 to capture the entire kit. It was my “one mic got it all” mic.

I positioned the TLM103 between the bass, snare, rack and floor tom drums near the drummers right knee.

The room mics were three DC96Bs positioned just right to obtain a perfect balance of audience response, room tone and band sound. These mics were blended with the stage mics during the mix. I mix a fair amount of room tone in the final mix.

During the origination, the signal chain was pretty simple. Based on how some folks feel it's (more) about the "gear" and not the "ear," I'm not sure if they should read any further because of the type of equipment we used on this date.

We had a 24 channel mic splitter on stage which we took the direct signal (house got the transformer) that ran through our snake to three True Systems Precision8 preamps directly to Tascam DA98HR & DA78HR machines recording at 24 bit – 48K. We used two Yamaha 01Vs linked together as our monitor desk which went to two Tascam CDR2000 CDRs. We also had a Tascam CDR1X4 dubber to make extra CDRs when applicable. The monitor speakers used were sMackie HR824s. We surrounded ourselves with a bunch of Tube Traps which we set up in the main office upstairs from the club.

As you can see, it was pretty low tech. Like I’ve said a number of times before, “It’s about the ear, not the gear!”

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by leddy

For guys like Andy that prefer no stereo pair, could you give a little detail on your spot mic'ing techniques? SDC's I assume? Single mics on each instrument? Omni or Cardiod, etc.? What do you use and where do you put it to get the right balance between the room, the bleed, and the detail of the instruments?

Thanks.

Remoteness: How about your "Latin Side of Miles" gig. How much of that was spot mics, vs room mics or a main pair? I still can't get over how nice that sounds.

I do 1 mic for each instrument. Cardioid or figure-8 (ribbon mics) or hyper-cardioid.

In general I like LDC for saxophones, ribbons on brass, scd for piano and drums, and the mics I mentioned erlier for bass. I use the bleed to give a sense of depth.

[Remoteness]

Ah, the "good" bleed.