micing drums and piano for jazz trio?

[jnorman]

this will be a live recording in my studio. drms, baby grand piano, and a saxophone. i did a test recording individually micing each instrument - stereo pair just inside the lip of the piano, 5 mics on the kit (snare, toms, kick, and OHs), and a LDC on the sax about 3 feet out and above.

the results were not good - the piano and drums were in your face due to the close mics, and the sax sounded like it was placed well behind the drums and piano - i guess just what you would expect from the mic setup. duh. all three instruments sound very nice on their own, but just dont fit together in the mix.

to keep them sounding like they are playing together in the same space, i guess i need to mic each instrument from about the same distance, or try to capture the whole perf with just a single stereo pair out at 6-8 feet....?

i know from experience that as i move mics further away from the piano, the sound gets more and more dull and diffuse, and i have never tried to track drums with just a stereo pair a few feet away, so i dont know how well that will work.

how do youse guys handle this? thanks.

[Jungle Jazz]

Couple quick thoughts: check over at the Remote Possibilities forum--that's where most things jazz related get discussed.

In your particular case, I'd say keep the close mics on the piano and drums, and you might try either a ribbon or a dynamic mic on the sax, but get in closer to it. If more ambient sound is needed, you might also use a room pair, and/or add a little reverb when mixing.

[idylldon]

Originally Posted by jnorman

or try to capture the whole perf with just a single stereo pair out at 6-8 feet....?

They should be able to internally balance their levels, so a stereo pair would be my first choice for the majority of the sound. Spend some time placing them carefully and it'll give you what you're looking for. I'd also probably put mono spot mics on the sax and piano for those times when I might need a bit more juice for some part of the mix.

If you need more coverage for the drums, then try something like this:

Glyn Johns drum mic setup

I've had great results using this setup with jazz drummers.

Cheers,
--
Don

[mixman499]

well..not being at your studio and HEARING the instruments in your room....its hard to say.

for a session like this i would generally have a stereo pair of mics in the room for a general "room" sound...depending on how you have the trio setup..i would place it to capture a good "live" sound that you can reinforce with additional mics.

with a good jazz drummer...i pretty much get by with VERY few mics...i usually use a nice ribbon overhead in mono...something outside the kick a ft or so in front of it....maybe some spot mics on the toms and snare...but often...not. the stereo room mic will give you some ambience...and a bit more stereo sound. ALOT of jazz drums were cut in mono...give it a shot. i usually use a coles 4038 overhead....often with a bit of compression...and a lawson l47 out in front of the kit....it picks up the kick...and the low end of the toms. sometimes i blend a bit of snare in.

put up a few "spot" mics closer to the piano and sax...and there ya go. if you are going for a LIVE sound...get it to sound cool in the room...walk around to a spot where it sounds nice to you...and put your stereo pair of mics there...use that as the basis for the whole mix...blend the other stuff underneath.

good luck with it !!!

cheers,

jchristopherhughes

[fifthcircle]

I'd use a stereo pair on the piano (or 2 mics over hammers depending on the sound you are looking for), a stereo pair in front of the drum kit- probably 2-3 feet out from the kit under the cymbals "looking" at the snare, and a single mic on the sax. I'd look seriously at a good dynamic or ribbon on the sax placed about 2-3 feet out, head height and aiming at the area between the bell and the body of the instrument.

As for the drums, remember in most jazz, the kick isn't very important. Rather, the ride, the snare and hat are most important to maintaining a sense of time. A properly placed mic or pair of mics in front should give you a very well balanced, intimate drum sound.

Also, I wouldn't pan the piano and drums from full left to right. Make space for each instrument- piano from hard left to about 1:00 and drums probably from about 11:00 to hard right, sax up the center. This is similar to the sound of some of the old Wally Heider recordings.

You aren't far off in your positioning, sounds like you need to work on your mix...

When doing jazz, I take a bit more purist approach- I don't use overall stereo pair micing as I'm not fond of the sound, but I try to let the players control their own sounds and I don't mess with it much.

--Ben