Classical guitar recording in my studio

[ISedlacek]

I started preparing for Saturday, when the famous classical guitar virtuoso Stepan Rak (Štìpán Rak - Homepage) will come here and record (something for my upcoming Mystical Violin CD and also his own solo pieces). I know that it would be much better to record it in some some small church, nice auditorium etc. , but it is simply not possible now. So I am trying to figure out the best setup for recording a classical guitar within my studio room.

I basically found that combining a pair of Schoeps (MK2 or MK21) with AEA R88 may probably bring the best result - either one used solo seems to miss something: R88 the clarity and space, Schoeps the warmth and velvet touch.

Here are few initial samples from my own "sound check". Of course, a beautiful reverb will be added (Bricasti) and my guitar sounds miles below the incredible Greg Smallman masterpiece, Mr. Rak will be playing. So the samples are just naked/dry and contain only my spontaneous plunking (but the basic setup should be ready and decided before he comes)

1) R88 close, Schoeps MK2 wide spread (about 60cm) just slightly behind it (this is the position as David Spearitt once suggested) - Schoeps have more sound share here:

Guitar1

2) R88 close, Schoeps MK2 far behind (about 40 cm apart -as "room mics") - R88 dominates here:

Guitar2

3) Similar as 1) but slightly further away

Guitar3

I also tried Schoeps close and AEA as "room mic" but it did not sound that well to me ...

What do you think ? Would you have any other suggestions ? The idea of the final sound is not a guitar placed in a big space and listened to from a distance as if, but it should be rather intimate approach capturing all the subtle details ("big" guitar and sound).

Of course, using more than one pair (as I did now) may cause some unwanted effects (which I slightly hear in Guitar 2 sample).

So I would be grateful for your suggestions and advice ... (and of course, I can keep posting these new options as well ...)

PS: Here is yet another position, as suggested by David Spearritt in another forum:

4) R88 placed about 1 m in front of the guitar (if placed further away, I feel that it becomes a bit thin plus the volume comes down) with MK2 outriggers placed slightly closer, about 1,5m apart.

Guitar4

The last option (4) seems to appeal to me the most so far .... I played few tones again a added a bit of reverb (just a plugin).


Guitar5

[Recording David]

Of these the only one I really like is 3 - it has the right amount of space to let the guitar breathe but without it sounding thin. I think 1 & 2 are just too close to the guitar. Also in 1 & 2 the recordings are quite noisy - maybe the ribbon is a bit too prominent?

I really think 3 sounds nice. You're very lucky to have the Bricasti reverb!

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by Recording David

Of these the only one I really like is 3 - it has the right amount of space to let the guitar breathe but without it sounding thin. I think 1 & 2 are just too close to the guitar. Also in 1 & 2 the recordings are quite noisy - maybe the ribbon is a bit too prominent?

I really think 3 sounds nice. You're very lucky to have the Bricasti reverb!

Have you listened to 4 and 5 ? I think it sounds the best so far ... No, I don´t have Bricasti ... I will just borrow it for this purpose ...
And you are right 1 and 2 do not sound ideal ...

[David Spearritt]

Yes, I prefer 4 and 5, 3 is too woofy and the image is wayward. Getting a stable image of the guitar top sound radiation is very important.

[noiseflaw]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

Have you listened to 4 and 5 ? I think it sounds the best so far ... No, I don´t have Bricasti ... I will just borrow it for this purpose ...
And you are right 1 and 2 do not sound ideal ...

The Bass is markedly less 'up front' example Guitar 4 than in Guitar 3.

Guitar 4 is less in your face and still quite intimate, so I choose that, but I would have liked to hear the same piece of music for each example, just concerned about the presence of bass in Ex 4, but you do not hit the bass notes as much...

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by noiseflaw

but I would have liked to hear the same piece of music foe each example, just concerned about the presence of bass in Ex 4, but you do not hit the bass notes as much...

Yes, sorry ... seems I am unable to play the same thing twice - always some "free jazz" ...

[FreeDanny]

i prefer #4

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by FreeDanny

i prefer #4

Me too ... Actually #5 is the same setting, just playing something different with added reverb (to give it an illusion of a final sound shape) .

So I will start from this position and try few more subtle tweakings ...

[logichead]

All of them sound good, depending on the type of music they would be used in. The close mic'd examples sound like they might be more appropriate for pop music, the others are a more traditional sound.

The room, the guitar, the guitarist are all variables that need to be considered. What sounds good today is unlikely to be the answer when the performer arrives with his guitar.

I usually have the performer play while I walk around the instrument, looking for one or two sweet spots that sound appealing. I then choose mics that will compliment what I hear. With classical guitar in a less than ideal room, this often means getting close (12-18") to the instrument with a SDC, aiming at the 12th fret. A LDC is sometimes added above and in front of the player's picking side shoulder, pointing towards the floor. This is used for body. Lately I have been angling the LDC towards the picking hand, distance of 18".

These are just starting points, ymmv. A great player makes all the difference. Have a great session!

Best....H

[hrn]

I have to say all of them sounds good in their own way. Why not try to have the AEA in the middle and the Schoeps on each side of it in an arrangement where all the mics have the same distance to the guitar. Thinking about phase issues. If the shoeps are omnis keep them close...about 20 -30 cm's apart and have all three about 1 meter from the guitar....Just a guess.

When I record violin I use a pair of room mics in front of the violin and one mic over it pointing down to the soundhole and I have them all at the same distance.

We all know how it sounds when we use two mics recording one source and move one of them....

Hans

[squeegybug]

Ivo,

I listened without noticing what setups were used, except I did not listen to #5 with the reverb. I chose my preferences in this order:

4 -- I raised the level +2 dB to match the others a little closer. This version sounded the most natural to me. Good stereo image, not overdone. Clean, almost dry, very balanced sound.

1 -- Fairly natural, a bit boring though. Thin compared to 2, 3, 4, but not bad. Was again a little low in volume and bass, since the selection was different was hard to tell for sure.

2 -- Little nasal at times, even sharp & boomy occasionally. Strange/confused stereo image.

3 -- My least favorite. Although the music is nice, and can override some of the objectivity. Overall I thought this sound again had a strange wandering image, did not sound real to me. And too big for an acoustic guitar.


I would suggest as I have before, to consider for acoustic stringed instruments this placement for a pair of mics, even mismatched ones:

One cardiod or omni (or whatever) mic centered at the soundhole, at eye level, pointing straight down at the floor. 6 to 24 inches (15 to 60 cm) away. Another mic (usually of the same kind, but not absolutely necessary) placed level with the fingerboard and pointed at the 7th-9th fret. 4 to 20 inches (10 to 50 cm) or so away for this one.

I move the left and right mic closer/farther to get the stereo balance I want. I always want the gain identical on the preamps. No HPF or pads on anything. I might change the pans in the mix to fit around any vocals or other instruments, as needed.

Steve

[ISedlacek]

Hi Steve,

yes, number 4 (= R88 in the middle and two wide outriggers) is for sure the best starting point. The truth is that since then I have yet dramatically improved this setting by some tweaking, balancing the position (distance, phase etc.) to reach nice, full and big natural sound ... better than posted before ...

I will also try what you suggest ...

[santibanks]

3 sounds very good space wise but I think its just a bit too thin. A bit more character like 2 would do the trick. Some notes are a bit too pronounced.

4 sounds very good too tone wise but I think its a bit too spacy.

[Schaap]

Originally Posted by rainy-taxi

4 sounds very good too tone wise but I think its a bit too spacy.

Agreed. Nice tone and character of the guitar but the space doesn't match the intimitate 'feeling'. Ivo, if the setting is difficult you can always add some very little delay(L/R) or only the early reflections of a good reverb to give the guitar some space without blurring or mudding the tone.

Henk

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by Schaap

Agreed. Nice tone and character of the guitar but the space doesn't match the intimitate 'feeling'. Ivo, if the setting is difficult you can always add some very little delay(L/R) or only the early reflections of a good reverb to give the guitar some space without blurring or mudding the tone.

Henk

Interesting ... I would be happy to know about what you exactly mean by the L/R delay or adding early reflections for reaching the "spacy effect" - i.e. how exactly it could be done. It could be a nice new knowledge for me ...

Actually, the present idea is not some realistic intimate sound resembling a guitar player sitting in a room (documentary), but rather BIG, abstract, idealistic sound, like "all pervading" guitar, filling nicely whole space, like being inside ... (I always like it for my music - something like THIS (from my CD Reflections)

And when Mr. Rak is playing, it is truly like a full orchestra, so again - the sound should be very big and spacy, not being limited by the real size of the instrument within a room ... This is the idea ...

[Schaap]

Ivo, you can route the amount of signal to taste via an AUX with a delay in the AUX where you set e.g. left delaychannel 23 and right delay 46 or what you like. It makes the guitar sound bigger and wider. Experiment with the numbers and the amount of signal. I like the setting that you hardly hear it but when you bypass you notice that you miss it.

Some Reverbs has an very good first reflections(sometimes with Early refl.) like the higher TC. You can use that with all other parameters or only the reverbtail set at zero.
For the reverbtail you can use e.g. a Lexicon Hall, where you have set the first reflections to zero. So it's a combination of reverbs.
Options,options....

Henk

[hrn]

Ivo.
Did you try my mic setup? Just wondering.

"Why not try to have the AEA in the middle and the Schoeps on each side of it in an arrangement where all the mics have the same distance to the guitar. Thinking about phase issues. If the shoeps are omnis keep them close...about 20 -30 cm's apart and have all three about 1 meter from the guitar....Just a guess.

When I record violin I use a pair of room mics in front of the violin and one mic over it pointing down to the soundhole and I have them all at the same distance.

We all know how it sounds when we use two mics recording one source and move one of them...."

Hans
__________________

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by hrn

Ivo.
Did you try my mic setup? Just wondering.

"Why not try to have the AEA in the middle and the Schoeps on each side of it in an arrangement where all the mics have the same distance to the guitar. Thinking about phase issues. If the shoeps are omnis keep them close...about 20 -30 cm's apart and have all three about 1 meter from the guitar....Just a guess.

Hello Hans, yes I tried. It sounded a bit narrower than with the omnis more apart (naturally). In the present setup the distance between all the mics and guitar are the same ...

[ISedlacek]

Stepan Rak in my studio today:

AEA R88 in the middle (Blumlein stereo), Schoeps MK2 outriggers on the sides. Preamps: Forssell stereo JFET. Guitar: Greg Smallman ...

Sounded quite nice in the end. Thank you for all your advice ...

PS: Just found one video of him on youtube: YouTube - INFORUM 2007: Hej okolo Levoče - Å*tÄ›pán Rak An ancore from a concert in Prague (= a Slovak folk song in very easy guitar arrangement )