Schoeps MSTC 64U O.R.T.F. microphone

[Lakeside]

I am thinking of buying a Schoeps MSTC 64U. It will be used for grand pianos (recording AND live sound) and small ensembles. At the moment I use two DPA 4011s for this purpose. They sound good but it takes some time and effort to get them in position and sometimes they get too clumsy with 2 x AT-84s, stereo bar and cables.

What are your experiences with this microphone? Is it worth the money? Are there other "less obvious" situations where you have found this microphone extra useful?

I have only heard the Schoeps "sound" on other peoples recordings. No experience of my own...

Thanks.

[acca]

I've used it several times, both for recording and sound reinforcement.
I must say that I prefer the CMC6+MKIV stereo pair for more versatility in placement (I prefer NOS stereo miking on pianos for example). Apart from that, the MSTC is a great sounding microphone, especially for pianos and small ensembles. I like it on drum overheads too... and I definitely prefer Schoeps sound over DPA/B&K sound.

Ps. It will be a great day in Italy when sound reinforcement companies will stop using 414 for grand pianos in jazz concerts and start using Schoeps microphones!

[Lakeside]

Thanks Acca!

Yes, two singles would get used more often but I love the "ease" of a proper ORTF-set up. No phase problems. Where do you put your NOS? In the curve slightly inside the piano ?

[Mats H]

Originally Posted by Lakeside

I am thinking of buying a Schoeps MSTC 64U. It will be used for grand pianos (recording AND live sound) and small ensembles. At the moment I use two DPA 4011s for this purpose. They sound good but it takes some time and effort to get them in position and sometimes they get too clumsy with 2 x AT-84s, stereo bar and cables.

What are your experiences with this microphone? Is it worth the money? Are there other "less obvious" situations where you have found this microphone extra useful?

I have only heard the Schoeps "sound" on other peoples recordings. No experience of my own...

Thanks.

Hi,

it's a great mic. Easy to set up and it usually sounds pretty good from beat 1. I've used it to record choirs, symphony orchestras and grand pianos with great success. The main point is the ease of setup. It's not as hyper transparent as DPAs but impart a pleasant yet clean and open tone to what's recorded. The off axis response of the cardioid capsule is very good.

Here's part of an orchestral concert from last sunday: http://www.livingsound.se/also.zip

The recording was made with a MSTC64 into a KORG MR-1000 @ 1 bit 5.6 MHz. Post processing is:
Conversion to 44.1 KHz with Audiogate, then a 4 dB shelf @ 40 Hz to compensate somewhat for the proximity effect. Finally dithering from 24 bit to 16.


Mats

[acca]

Originally Posted by Lakeside

Thanks Acca!

Yes, two singles would get used more often but I love the "ease" of a proper ORTF-set up. No phase problems. Where do you put your NOS? In the curve slightly inside the piano ?

A pair in the curve but not inside the piano, and another pair at the end of the coda.
I'll try to find out a photo of the last piano session with Schoeps.

[Lakeside]

Originally Posted by Mats H

Hi,

it's a great mic. Easy to set up and it usually sounds pretty good from beat 1. I've used it to record choirs, symphony orchestras and grand pianos with great success. The main point is the ease of setup. It's not as hyper transparent as DPAs but impart a pleasant yet clean and open tone to what's recorded. The off axis response of the cardioid capsule is very good.

Here's part of an orchestral concert from last sunday: http://www.livingsound.se/also.zip

The recording was made with a MSTC64 into a KORG MR-1000 @ 1 bit 5.6 MHz. Post processing is:
Conversion to 44.1 KHz with Audiogate, then a 4 dB shelf @ 40 Hz to compensate somewhat for the proximity effect. Finally dithering from 24 bit to 16.


Mats

Thanks!

I just listened in my headphones straight out of my powerbook G4. Perfect democlip for a stereomic! How far away was it positioned and where in the was the organ located? I have to listen again in my speakers tomorrow.

I liked it. Thanks for posting!

[Lakeside]

Originally Posted by acca

A pair in the curve but not inside the piano, and another pair at the end of the coda.
I'll try to find out a photo of the last piano session with Schoeps.

I am not sure I follow that. Where is the coda?

Interesting, there are so many ways to work with pianos. I´ld love to see that photo. Thanks again!

[Mats H]

Originally Posted by Lakeside

Thanks!

I just listened in my headphones straight out of my powerbook G4. Perfect democlip for a stereomic! How far away was it positioned and where in the was the organ located? I have to listen again in my speakers tomorrow.

I liked it. Thanks for posting!

The stereo mic was approximately 2 metres behind the conductor, 3 metres up in the air. Huge orchestra with 110 musicians, they barely had room to play. The organ was about 30 metres away, in the back of the church.

This was the backup recording, the main mics were a decca tree with flanks and a few spots.


Mats

[JP66]

IMO a stereo pair of cmc6's with the kc5 cables plus the capsules of your choice would probably be a better option. Throw them on a kwon bar for easy setup. this is a VERY common setup for field recordists.

kwon bar:
Cascade Media: Schoeps Custom Stereo Mounting Bar for NOS technique 30cm/90 deg

[lydentusiast]

Originally Posted by acca

I've used it several times, both for recording and sound reinforcement.
I must say that I prefer the CMC6+MKIV stereo pair for more versatility in placement (I prefer NOS stereo miking on pianos for example). Apart from that, the MSTC is a great sounding microphone, especially for pianos and small ensembles. I like it on drum overheads too... and I definitely prefer Schoeps sound over DPA/B&K sound.

Ps. It will be a great day in Italy when sound reinforcement companies will stop using 414 for grand pianos in jazz concerts and start using Schoeps microphones!

Hi,
I'm new to this forum, so I haven't read this old conversation before now.
May I ask: Why do you prefer Schoeps sound over DPA/B&K sound?
(I've always heard that DPA is the best for recording orchestras.)

[VukOnCrack]

I've noticed one of these hanging in the SPCO Center (St. Paul Chamber Orchestra). I think Roonsbane, who posts here now and again, does broadcast for the SPCO. I don't know if he's used this install**, but you might ask him of his experience if any.

** The SPCO Center is mostly used for smaller-draw events like contemporary music programs; as such, these mics might not get used for broadcast and may be archival only if they're used at all.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by acca

Ps. It will be a great day in Italy when sound reinforcement companies will stop using 414 for grand pianos in jazz concerts and start using Schoeps microphones!

Why?

414's are great mic's, been a staple of the industry for more years than I can remember, this doesn't happen without good reason.

Regards



Roland

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by lydentusiast

Hi,
I'm new to this forum, so I haven't read this old conversation before now.
May I ask: Why do you prefer Schoeps sound over DPA/B&K sound?
(I've always heard that DPA is the best for recording orchestras.)

Although not exactly in big orchestra applications, but rather on recording various acoustic instruments, I have directly compared most of the principal DPA mics to Schoeps (MK2, MK21, MK4V) in the course of time. I had pairs of 4006, 4011, 4023, 4041 and 4060 here, always open to adding something new, inspiring to my Schoeps collection.

Whatever I tried, the picture was similar most of the time, with different microphone types. DPA sounding more "cold", plain (I don´t dare to use the term "sterile"), Schoeps always having some more pleasant, "musical", warm touch that in the result sounded more pleasant to the ears. Even if I was just to select between these mics before buying, if they even interchanged the names and prices, I would definitely select Schoeps all over, because of their more pleasant sound (yet highly detailed and natural). My personal long term impression.

[mr.gefell]

I actually use mstc 6 with mk5 capsules, as the cardiod pattern on the mk5 sounds slightly better to me. cinela also makes a nice shockmount for these.As someone else said, setting up is pretty easy as pulling your pants down:-D

[lydentusiast]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

...DPA sounding more "cold", plain (I don´t dare to use the term "sterile"), Schoeps always having some more pleasant, "musical", warm touch that in the result sounded more pleasant to the ears. Even if I was just to select between these mics before buying, if they even interchanged the names and prices, I would definitely select Schoeps all over, because of their more pleasant sound (yet highly detailed and natural). My personal long term impression.

Thanks for sharing your experiences!
Do you know WHY Schoeps mics make this warm touch? When I look at the frequency response pictures, they seem quite flat to me. So why are they sounding warmer??

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by lydentusiast

Thanks for sharing your experiences!
Do you know WHY Schoeps mics make this warm touch? When I look at the frequency response pictures, they seem quite flat to me. So why are they sounding warmer??

The gentle artistry and musicality of their creators ? If I am right, DPAs were originally meant as "measurement" mics ? Cannot comment technical aspects. Maybe funny - but even the outer look and packing: DPAs look very technical (all those silver suitcases, black boxes etc., so many futuristic accessories), Schoeps look more natural, cosy, friendly somehow. But of course, it has no direct connection to the sound.

[lydentusiast]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

The gentle artistry and musicality of their creators ? If I am right, DPAs were originally meant as "measurement" mics ? Cannot comment technical aspects. Maybe funny - but even the outer look and packing: DPAs look very technical (all those silver suitcases, black boxes etc., so many futuristic accessories), Schoeps look more natural, cosy, friendly somehow. But of course, it has no direct connection to the sound.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts!

[Plush]

Long time house of Schoeps here. . .

The French radio MSTC64 is a great mic and is the choice here for main pick-up.

Before I got it, I always carefully set up some Schoeps cardioids in ORTF configuration.
Guess what?? The ORTF was never quite right in spacing and/or angle until I started using the REAL ORTF mic from Schoeps.

Worth the money and the sound is outstanding.

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by Plush

Long time house of Schoeps here. . .

The French radio MSTC64 is a great mic and is the choice here for main pick-up.

Before I got it, I always carefully set up some Schoeps cardioids in ORTF configuration.
Guess what?? The ORTF was never quite right in spacing and/or angle until I started using the REAL ORTF mic from Schoeps.

Worth the money and the sound is outstanding.

It however means this Schoeps ORTF twin system is firm/unmoveable ? You cannot adjust the angle/distance of the mics not even a bit ?

[Plush]

Hello Ivo,

Yes, the MSTC 64 is a FIXED ORTF stereo mic. It was made for French radio and is the real thing. It is ONLY a stereo mic and you cannot move anything on the mic.

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by Plush

Hello Ivo,

Yes, the MSTC 64 is a FIXED ORTF stereo mic. It was made for French radio and is the real thing. It is ONLY a stereo mic and you cannot move anything on the mic.

Pity, because sometimes you may like to make the angle slightly wider/narrower , depending on the situation (apart from the prevailing "classical" position). Otherwise this ORTF set looks great. Pity also that you cannot change the capsules for MK21 as well

[Plush]

Ivo, these stereo mics are for people who already have other mics to use for the ways you suggest. CMC64 mics and a good stereo bar or KC cables can get you close to this ORTF configuration. However, it cannot be exact. That is my contention.

As to the supposed "drawback" to not be able to use MK21 capsules on an ORTF stereo mic??? Why would you want to do that? See above---that's what you have the other sets of Schoeps mics for.

Mind you, I'm talking about professional users here. Our cabinet has over 25 Schoeps mics.

[Don S]

Originally Posted by Plush

Hello Ivo,

Yes, the MSTC 64 is a FIXED ORTF stereo mic. It was made for French radio and is the real thing. It is ONLY a stereo mic and you cannot move anything on the mic.

Hey Plush,

Don't you find useful to change the angles slightly depending on the size of the ensemble or sound stage? I see many times people using CMC64's at or around 90 degrees. I'm not sure if it's intentional or not. But I do like to modify ORTF, and especially with sub cardioids.
Ivo,
From the photo it looks like you can remove the capsules.
Posthorn | Schoeps MSTC 64g ORTF Stereo Microphone

[Plush]

I am speaking of the "official" ORTF configuration above.

90 degrees is not ORTF, neither is 95 degrees.

ORTF is 110 degrees WITH the stipulation that the capsules are 17 centimeters apart (approx. 6.6 inches apart) Try arranging that on a stereo bar. It is indeed quite difficult.

The Absolute Nagrist that owns the MSTC 64 will also have other mics to use when tweaks to semi-spaced cardioids are required.

[mr.gefell]

jees..do people read? you can use any schoeps capsule on the mic body, as long as it is cardiod it will fulfill the ortf criteria, again here is mine with the mk5.

Plush is the mang..nice taste

[Don S]

Originally Posted by Plush

I am speaking of the "official" ORTF configuration above.

90 degrees is not ORTF, neither is 95 degrees.

ORTF is 110 degrees WITH the stipulation that the capsules are 17 centimeters apart (approx. 6.6 inches apart) Try arranging that on a stereo bar. It is indeed quite difficult.

The Absolute Nagrist that owns the MSTC 64 will also have other mics to use when tweaks to semi-spaced cardioids are required.

Plush,

Many of us on this board understand what the textbook definition ORTF is. My question is if you ever find it useful to tighten the angle when using 2 CMC64's on a stereo bar? When I'm using flanks, sometimes I close it up a bit when I hear the 2 pairs together.

[lydentusiast]

Wow, you're talking about small adjustments here, both in distance and in angle.

Can you actually hear the difference? How do you hear it, and how can you tell what is best in different occasions? Can you hear it from the monitors? What if the monitors are placed in a wrong angle, etc. etc.

I would love to learn more about this!!! Please teach me!

[kgreener]

Originally Posted by mr.gefell

I actually use mstc 6 with mk5 capsules, as the cardiod pattern on the mk5 sounds slightly better to me. cinela also makes a nice shockmount for these.As someone else said, setting up is pretty easy as pulling your pants down:-D

Hi, out of lurk mode for a moment over here. Nice thread. I just wanted to throw a quick question out to mr. gefell. May I ask why you prefer the mk5 cardioid sound vs. the mk4? I have one of these MSTC64 stereo mics myself and have pondered the mk5 as another option, but noticed the HF rise on the charts and that kind of shied me away as I prefer the flatter, less-bright sound of the mk4's. Also, assuming you have tried it, how does the mk5 set to omni mode sound in an ORTF configuration? Any issues?

Thanks in advance, and thanks for a great thread all around.

Keith

[mr.gefell]

Originally Posted by kgreener

Hi, out of lurk mode for a moment over here. Nice thread. I just wanted to throw a quick question out to mr. gefell. May I ask why you prefer the mk5 cardioid sound vs. the mk4? I have one of these MSTC64 stereo mics myself and have pondered the mk5 as another option, but noticed the HF rise on the charts and that kind of shied me away as I prefer the flatter, less-bright sound of the mk4's. Also, assuming you have tried it, how does the mk5 set to omni mode sound in an ORTF configuration? Any issues?

Thanks in advance, and thanks for a great thread all around.

Keith

The mk5 cardiod has a subtle hf lift which adds more clarity than the mk4 . This is the main reason. I like it. I could always try the omni position but would i achieve?certainly not ortf !


maybe put a baffle around the mstc body? could be an interesting experiment..